288: Your Fitness Journey Expectations vs. Reality: A Candid Conversation with Natalie DuLaney and Heidi Bollard

Introduction 

You're listening to Biceps After Babies Radio Episode 288. 

Hello and welcome to Biceps After Babies Radio. A podcast for ladies who know that fitness is about so much more than pounds lost or PR's. It's about feeling confident in your skin and empowered in your life. I'm your host Amber Brueseke, a registered nurse, personal trainer, wife and mom of four. Each week my guests and I will excite and motivate you to take action in your own personal fitness as we talk about nutrition, exercise, mindset, personal development and executing life with conscious intention. If your goal is to look, feel and be strong and experience transformation from the inside out, you my friend are in the right place. Thank you for tuning in. Now, let's jump into today's episode.

Hey, hey hey! Welcome back to another episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm your host Amber Brueseke. And today I have a really fun conversation and really, that's what it is, it's just, it's just like a peek into a conversation. It's a little less structured than some of my podcast episodes, and it's just an ability for me and a couple of my friends. You guys know Heidi and Natalie from Butter Your Macros. They've been on the podcast a bunch of times. They are my real life friends. My real life gym buddies and these podcast episodes become just kind of a chance for us to just chat and just have a conversation. Kind of let you in on some of the types of conversations that we have at the gym. These are kind of some of the topics that we'll talk about, the things that we'll talk about in between sets or in between wads. And we think it's just fun to come on to the podcast and just kind of riff a little bit together. So again, these are a little more unstructured, but that doesn't mean they're not full of a lot of wisdom and insight because as we kind of build on each other and build on our experiences, magic gets kind of made and it's really exciting to be able to have them back on the podcast. So today's topic is a really good one and I guess the way to like boil this topic down into one word would be expectations, and I coach a lot on this on helping the people to have set the good expectations or maybe a better word is like a skillful expectation as they come into this process because a lot of times people come in to their fitness journey having an idea of what it's going to look like. And I would say more times than not, the process is very different from what you were expecting. And that can freak a lot of people out because we think, Ohh I'm doing this wrong or this I must be on the wrong path or I'm not doing this in the right way because this is looking different than I thought it would look and that's where I as a Coach can step in and say, No, your expectations were just off. There's nothing wrong. You're on the right path. You're doing the right things, you’re moving in the right direction, the only thing that's “wrong” is that you had different expectations about what this was supposed to look like. So, expectations are incredibly important and the type of expectations you come into this process with will impact how long you stick with it, what results you get, how quickly you get the results and how happy you are while getting those results and when you get those results. So, expectations is really important conversation. That's why Nat and Heidi and I wanted to be able to have this topic be brought onto the podcast and to be able to share with you. So, we're going to jump into, not calling it an interview, I was going to call it a conversation with me and Butter Your Macros. 

Natalie DuLaney 03:30 

Well, good morning. We're actually just talking about how we feel, but we're super excited for this podcast together, but it's probably been, I don't know, has it been like a year since we've recorded together? Maybe. 

Amber B 03:42 

Too long. It has to been a year, because it was the one we did about quitting and it was right after the CrossFit quarterfinals, like the quarterfinals just happened. 

Natalie DuLaney 03:48 

Oh, that's right. And if anybody wants an update, we all still feel like quitting, pretty often. In fact, our gym this morning was playing music during the workout. And there was Ariana Grande at first and it's like this is the part where I say that I don't want to. 

Amber B 04:04 

And that was exactly like that Nat, like it was a 2 parter, it was like you finish the first part and you get a 3-minute rest and then you have a second part and both of us. 

Natalie DuLaney 04:10 

That was super accurate and it was like a Madonna song.  

Amber B 04:11 

I don't wanna. 

Natalie DuLaney 04:14 

What was it like? Oh, shoot. 

Amber B 04:17 

Of course, you remember all the songs. 

Natalie DuLaney 04:17 

I don't know. I just thought it was super funny, so I'm like, oh, you made the perfect playlist. I was like, I don't want to quit or something or like. I don't know. Give up or something. I'm like, no, actually sounds pretty good. On that note, we're hanging out today talking a little bit about kind of, I mean, I guess we could, we quitting in there because that's usually where they want to quit. Just to talk a little bit about whether you want to call them roadblocks or pretty common thoughts when anyone is either embarking beginning or in the middle of, or starting again on whether you want to label it, we need to really need a new word outside of fitness journey.  

Heidi Bollard 04:53 

I know, right. 

Natalie DuLaney 04:55 

Or any kind of goals that you're pursuing. So these kind of common thoughts. We'd love to talk a little bit about timelines and expectations and entitlements and just little things that we've kind of noticed over, I don't know the past like, 5, 6, 8 years or so. But also just, I mean, when we're guilty of these as well, it's not that like you can become immune to these kind of thoughts. But I think having a little bit of idea of  like context for the things that you want and the things that you do really can make the process feel a lot more supportive instead of destructive or like you're just spinning your wheels, and I think a pretty common theme is like they don't want to put the effort in unless they know for sure they're going to get something, like you know. 

Amber B 05:34 

Yeah. Yeah. And to like, so give some context as to why we're getting on and talking about this. So Heidi and Nat and I work out most days of the week together, right? We're at least at the gym together. And so we chat and a lot of times our chats are, you know, about our own life. But oftentimes we're chatting our own life. Both of, all of us, coach people, and so that's a big part of our life. And so a lot of times we're talking about things we see on Instagram or struggles our clients are having or things that we're seeing as patterns in people that we're coaching. And oftentimes, we'll bring it up and you know, Nat will bring up something and I’d be like, Oh gosh, yeah, like I have the same thing with my client and so we kind of riff with each other about things that we're seeing in the fitness world as well as with our clients, and this is a big topic that we just started chatting about and saying, hey, there's a lot here that we could really talk about because we see this a lot with our clients of an expectation of if I put in XYZ effort, I'm going to get ABC results. And then when that is incongruent, and that doesn't happen, that causes a lot of issues internally and you know us as coaches are helping to work clients through that. And so we kind of started, Nat and I started talking about this one day and we were like, we could have a whole podcast episode on this and so here we are having a whole podcast episode on it. 

Natalie DuLaney 06:48 

And I feel like we're, our work is really cut out for us. I mean, I think especially as we start to like add in AI to a lot of things, the level of unrealistic expectations is just going to soar, right? Because there was some article I was reading and I think it actually was a study or created by a website called bulimia.com and I was talking about like the perfect person, right? Or the perfect body, perfect look, perfect, whatever. And they had AI run these simulations and the bodies are not much different than what you would see on Instagram and social media as well as like faces, right, like similar looks, similar faces, similar bodies. And I think we're just going to, unless you get ahead of like what your expectations are from even an aesthetic perspective or time perspective. We're just going to get more and more convoluted thoughts and images and timelines as this kind of stuff spins out, right.  

Amber B 07:45 

Yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 07:46 

And so I think kind of getting ahead of like what is real versus what is not real would be a really helpful discussion. 

Amber B 07:54  

Well, so let's start there. Because this is often a question, I think, some clients are self-aware enough to know that that's a good question to ask, right? And so I'm sure you get this too, where people come in and they're like, OK, I know I shouldn't have unrealistic expectations. So, help me set realistic expectations, so what does that even mean? And how do we, how does one determine what are realistic expectations, so you're not setting yourself up for getting disappointed? 

Heidi Bollard 08:25 

Well, it's a great question and context matters enormously here, right like, what is your goal? What is your lifestyle? What is your history? What do you want? And that's going to vary from person to person, which I think is why, you know, the old adage of like it, it might be simple, but it isn't easy to figure out exactly what that is, right? 

Amber B 08:51 

Yeah 

Heidi Bollard 08:51 

And not only are there like, I mean we're we're at least where when it comes to self-awareness, at least we have this blank canvas of like body data to sort of figure out what expectations are. I mean, you move away from something that has like a finite goal you're working towards. And those questions and expectations become even more nebulous, right? Like you, it's one thing to focus on building strength or or adding muscle, right, that we have measurements and weights and progressive overload and those. All those kinds of things. But feeling good about yourselves, right, that those are two totally separate goals that sometimes can work together. But it all depends on how you, how the process goes, right? 

Amber B 09:36 

So often people collapse those two things down and they think if I get the muscle, if I lose the weight, then I will feel better and, you know, what Heidi said was just so important is that those are both valid and awesome goals, but they're not the same goal, and there's a problem when you think that they are one and the same goal. And when you split those goals out and realize those are two separate goals and they are probably 2 separate paths to get there, then you can more likely achieve maybe one and or both of those goals. But what a lot of people do is they say when I lose the 20lbs and I'll feel better and then they get to the 20lbs and they're like crap, I don't feel any better. What the heck? Like, I thought that these things would, this would make me feel this way. 

Heidi Bollard 10:15 

Or they swap. What the? What is prompting the negative thoughts is swapped to something different, right? Like yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 10:24 

I think it'd be interesting to also dissect like, what's the difference between real and realistic because I actually feel like those are two different things in a lot of ways too, right? 

Amber B 10:30 

Wait, tell me more. 

Natalie DuLaney 10:31 

Well, I think it's like, you know, you have what is real and what is real for a person and what is realistic is completely different things. I mean, I think that it also is subjective to the individual, right, like what's realistic for the three of us individually doesn't change the fact that there are things that are real for us universally, right? Does that make sense? It's like would it? 

Amber B 10:49 

Or is it like the difference between like an attainable versus maintainable? Is that kind of what you are seeing it as? 

Natalie DuLaney 10:54 

I mean. Is our OK, let's just like, for lack of a better idea right now. Well, let's just say, are 6 packs real? for sure, are they realistic for everybody? No. Right. It's like so that's also I think sometimes the disconnect that people have is like just because you see it and it really does exist, right? It doesn't necessarily mean that it is realistic for you. 

Heidi Bollard 11:13 

Yes.  

Natalie DuLaney 11:14 

And that is our big part, a problem with social media and even just like I think our industry in general. It's like, is it like when we work out, when we do things, are these all real workouts? for sure, right. And this real workout? Mark Carroll is a real workout. Bicep curls are real workout, but do they yield the same thing? And what does it yield? Is that a realistic, achievable thing? Whatever marker you're using to, whether create, whether it's a PR or an aesthetic result, or a time or whatever it's like, you know, is it realistic for me to do Fran and get the same time as somebody who is across the games athlete? No, that is not realistic. Is it a real workout? Yes.  

Heidi Bollard 11:50 

Totally or like becoming Bikini Pro lean is that does that really happen in life? Absolutely. Can like a woman with an overwhelmed lifestyle, already get to that goal without major life change? No, it is not even possible for that specific person. 

Amber B 12:09 

Well, it becomes the question of like is it worth it as well? It's like exactly a lot of times it I guess you could get there, right? But the sacrifice that would be required in order to attain that is maybe, probably mostly not worth it. And so then you have to ask yourself that question is like, it's not even only is it realistic. Is this like do I? Do I want to put the cost in doing? I want to pay the fee that's required in order to get that. 

Heidi Bollard 12:35 

One of the best infographics I think we've ever seen is the precision nutrition infographic. The cost of being lean. You're listening to this and if you've never seen that, Google it, because that, you're wondering if your expectations are realistic. That's all. That's a pretty vivid image when it comes to like getting lean or building muscle. That's a pretty good infographic. 

Natalie DuLaney 12:58 

Oh, it's amazing. I think it, this really gives a lot of context for like where people are in their lives and the sacrifices that go along with having certain things. And so when we talk about expectations, I think that there is that connection to what's realistic for you. It's like, do your expectations for yourself line up with what's realistic for you? Like they go to in tandem, right, it's like you can expect a lot of things. And not have it really be realistic for you, right? Or what's realistic for you can therefore also kind of cultivate your expectations around the thing. And I think that part of self-awareness. I think people miss, right, they just see this end result. Like I want that. It's like, OK, well, that's super awesome. But at least, you know, you know what you want but is it a realistic and achievable goal for you in a sense that like sure if I put in this effort or I carve out this time or I put myself in a position physically and mentally to be able to achieve it, I think it's always just kind of a worth like an ask a worthy, ask to be like is that actually something that I really want? And then is it realistic for me? And then also what does it mean? What do I need to do to achieve that? Those are all I think incredibly, you know, thought provoking things are most people are asking to think like I want this. Like I want 20, I want to lose 20 pounds right now. OK. How realistic is that for you now? It's like I got six vacations coming up. I've got this, this, this, this. Probably really realistic. No, right. And that's like. Our job as coaches to be like, let's look at these timelines that like we have expectations surrounding too. Can you lose 20 pounds like in a year or year and a half? Absolutely. I think it's fully a realistic goal, 20 pounds in the next, like month and a half. 

Amber B 14:32 

Probably not.  

Natalie DuLaney 14:32 

Probably not. 

Amber B 14:34 

One of my favorite posts that you guys do and I think this goes back to not your differentiation between real and realistic is when you guys do the posts about hey, we've done the same workouts for the last five years together and look at the different results that they've gotten us, because people get in their minds. It's like if I do again ABC workout I will get XYZ result and it's such a great visual representation of like you both can do the exact same workout. You can work out simultaneously together and it produces very different results because you are different humans and different genetics and different individuals and bodies respond differently to the same exact training to the same exact workout, to the same exact meal plan like and so this idea that ABC equals XYZ is such a problematic assumption. And then my big thing is what happens when we have that assumption of ABC will equal XYZ. Then if ABC doesn't equal XYZ well then I'm the problem like I must be doing something wrong instead of just recognizing, hey, it's not going to produce the same result because I don't have the same genetics or the same time or the same lifestyle or the same history that somebody else does and the problem isn't you. The problem is your expectations, that it will be in one certain way or another. 

Heidi Bollard 15:46 

Totally. Or even those who they may not even realize that they're doing that. They think it's like the program or whatever. They just hop from program to program without. 

Amber B 15:56 

To find a magic wand, yeah. 

Heidi Bollard 15:56 

Getting enough time. Totally, totally. 

Natalie DuLaney 16:00 

And it's either like I must be the problem or she does everything right. And therefore I do everything wrong. It's like you could actually have some people who just do, like, act and get a certain result, right? Like and you have to go full all in and they don't even get half of that result right? It's just, it's never going to feel fair, I guess it's. 

Amber B 16:16 

And it isn't fair right that like, it's like when you were a kid and you thought life was supposed to be fair and you became an adult you realize that it never is fair. It's like that realization in your fitness journey, it's not fair. Sorry. Like. And coming to terms with that allows you to help give yourself some grace. Like, it's not fair. She may be able to do way less than you. She may able to be cut way higher in calories than you. It's not fair, but that's reality. 

Natalie DuLaney 16:42 

Well, and also connected to what you want, right? Like I mean, I think there's a Jetta sent me this the other day is a girl who's, like, cutting out like 2400 calories. And she's like, what is this, like it has to exist somewhere on some space of plane, right?  

Amber B 16:55 

It's real, but it may not be realistic for you. 

Natalie DuLaney 16:56 

100% right, there's our realistic, right? So imagine to be able to cut a 2400 calories, who would complain? 

Amber B 17:04 

Right. Well, but to be fair too, it isn't always real. And I think that was like circling back to one of the first things you talked about. Social media is like just because it's on social media doesn't actually mean it's real, people lie all the time on social media. They lie about their calories, they lie about what they're doing, they lie about how much cardio they're doing because they know that there is a persona that people want to follow. People don't want to follow somebody who has to do 4 hours of cardio and cut at 1100 calories in order to look a certain way. Nobody wants to follow that person. They want to follow a person who can eat 2400 calories, do 0 cardio and look a certain way. And that's you just have to have that in the back of your mind when you're following these people, I’m not saying everyone's lying, but 

Heidi Bollard 17:41 

They might not even know that they're lying. They might be, they may be living a totally unhealthy lifestyle and the floor just hasn't dropped out yet. Or they just don't really understand the whole story, you know,  

Natalie DuLaney 17:56 

I love the irony and all because it's like the hard work is supposed to be inspirational, but no work is also inspirational. 

Amber B 18:02 

I think that's ironic on Instagram, I think, than no work is more inspirational. It's like everybody wants to do 0 cardio and eat a ton of calories and have a 6 pack and that's inspirational to people. 

Heidi Bollard 18:11 

That’s wrong. I mean that girl, the thing that caught that got me to start macros was seeing the higher power opposed to eating like teen egos or something and I was like, what diet? I want that.  

Natalie DuLaney 18:23 

When you look at Heidi Powell, now you're like. Oh, I know why she can do. That yeah, sure. 

Amber B 18:34

OK. Can we talk about building muscle? Because I think that this is something that all three of us have a passion to help women to do is to pick up the barbell, pick up the weights like incorporate resistance training into your workouts. I think all of us preach that we all want more women to be lifting more weight. But I think especially for people who come into this a little bit later in life or are starting this, their expectation has to do with cardio and how fast they saw adaptation with cardio and how quickly they saw their body adapt and be able to run. You know they only run, able to run one mile and then, a couple weeks later they're able to run three and then seven and it's like they adapt so quickly and then they come and then they come to weightlifting and they're like, what the heck? Why is this taking so long and then we all get the question. Like how long is this going to take and? We say, oh, sit down. Oh, let's have a conversation about this. So can we talk about like realistic time frames for what it looks like to actually build muscle to actually look like you lift so that people have some realistic expectations, especially if they're coming into this and they've never lifted before and they're 35 and there's the first time touching a weight.

Natalie DuLaney 19:44 

I think we actually probably need to break them even separately because building muscle, getting strong and looking like it are all three different timelines. 

Amber B 19:50 

All different goals going back to Heidi's thing where you got to separate out the goals. Those are different goals with different paths to get there in different timelines. 

Heidi Bollard 19:58 

So let's just be like a Venn Diagram there might be overlap, we should create that. 

Natalie DuLaney 20:02 

OK, so let's just start with the first one. Let's just talk about getting strong. We're not talking about aesthetics right now, and we're not talking about was everyone building muscle? maybe those high into get together a little bit stronger building muscle, but let's just. 

Amber B 20:16 

Well, I think you can like build muscle, but then people wanna like, look like they lift, which is a different aesthetic than just so. 

Natalie DuLaney 20:19 

Right, right, right. So let's touch aesthetics at the very end. Because of that ties into genetics, right, so getting strong. OK, well, how strong do you really want to be or need to be?  I guess. Like my first question right. Like because we know that strength is an adaptation to the things that you need to accomplish in life. If you don't really have like a need to like move 300 pound boxes or 400 pound boxes, but maybe just moving like bags of rice and like 1 swoop or a Costco trip like I know that's a lot of going take my Costco trip in like 1 round. I mean obviously we have all the disclaimers like how big is your family? How much are you buying from Costco? I mean, I think most of us can take in one grocery trip and one like I think, sack all the bags, you know, 5 to 8 bags, but I mean it just it kind of depends like how strong do you need to be, I guess it would be my first question, right? If it's just an overall quality of life, I think it actually can happen fairly quickly if you are really lifting right. I mean, I don't, I think you'd be amazed at what you can, I've been think you'd be amazed at how strong you currently are that you don't give yourself credit for. I think back right out the gate when you have people who have never lifted before and they're like, oh, this actually I can do a whole lot more because I mean obviously. If you've carried an infant carrier or a Britax car seat, or you have taken your groceries in or lifted anything on even holding on the other side of a couch with somebody else or whatever you do have like a level of strength already that you probably don't know about, right? I think a lot of women are a lot stronger than they think they are. That being said, how strong do you need to be and how long does it take to get strong. I mean, that's just depending on how strong do you need to be right. It's like a very flux like number in my head, right? Like I don’t know. 

Heidi Bollard 21:59 

Like how like you're talking about. Like, how? Like how do you measure? Like, how do you measure strength? Yeah, I mean, for my part, I would say with a percentage that do get the badass vision of being strong. I would, I would say probably most women that say they want to get strong actually mean they want to look. 

Amber B 22:25 

Yeah, they look like they look. 

Heidi Bollard 22:26 

It's like saying like when people are people, when people say like I just I want to, I want to be healthy. When what they really mean is I want to lose body fat. 

Amber B 22:34 

Yeah, and and I think for some to give a little bit of realistic expectation to for like people who are coming in, brand new lifters, it is realistic. If you're a newbie lifter to put 50lbs on your squat in two to three months like that's realistic for a brand new lifter to PR your squat every single time you go into the gym for the first three months. And let me tell it's freaking exciting as a newbie lifter because last time you back squatted 45lbs, and now you're back squatting 50, and then next time it will be 55, and then it will be 60. And like every single time you're freaking PRing. And that's really exciting. So I think you know to that's point is like that first little part of the like getting strong, you can get strong pretty dang fast that's not necessarily in the translate into what Heidi said which is when people say they wanna get strong they want to look strong like that's a different thing. But you can continue PR-ing and have that linear progression with your weights going up for a good little while and so you give it, you know, 3 to 6 months. 

Natalie DuLaney 23:32 

If that's on lateral raises, can you get capital quick enough? 

Amber B 23:36

OK. We're talking about like compound lifts.

Natalie DuLaney 23:40 

Ok, ok. I will just put a disclaimer in there because there was a girl in there was like I should even do 20 pound lateral raise, but now I'm like, says who? The muscles are so baby. 

Amber B 23:48 

Right. So let's like, like, just talk about that real quick is like there is a big difference between isolation list which is like a lateral raise and a compound lift which is like overhead press yeah. Where you're like, using not just your deltoid or just like the lateral part of your deltoid, which is like a lateral raise. So you don't even using your whole deltoid. You're supposed to be just using the lateral part of your deltoid, over the place where you're using. 

Heidi Bollard 24:10 

Increasing your grip strength, doing Pinky raises. 

Amber B 24:14 

Yeah, so I think that that is helpful for people to know. It's like if your goal is to get strong, you can get pretty strong in like a good six month program. You will be shocked at how much more you can lift, and then like Nat said, it kind of starts to slow down and then the question starts to become, well, how strong do I really need to be? And this was my experience in powerlifting was like I got to the point where it was like OK, I think I PRd my back squat at like 232 was my heaviest one ever and I kept working to like try and increase that. And I realized if I wanted to have like 5lbs in my back squat, it was going to take me 6 to 12 months to add five pounds, like that's the point that I was at genetically. And that seems like a real bummer to me, but it seems like I don't want to work for 6 to 12 months to add five pounds to my squat. I'm strong enough, you know? Like this is. This is good. I'm out. 

Natalie DuLaney 25:07 

100%. I think it's just like always the juice is worth the squeeze, it's like the rate of return after a certain point. You got to ask yourself is it really worth the time to put into it, right? Like you know, I don't know that I'll ever get my 300 deadlift. But like right now? I can probably have a run like the 270, 280 Range. That's probably good enough, right? Like even though my ego wants a 300, the work to get the 300 is a lot less work than the work to get a 270 or 275 for me currently. So it's just like, it's just easier to stay here, right? In a way I mean, even today you're back squatting, and like you asked like 70% of other ever, ever, ever, ever. PR or like our last one. Like and. 

Amber B 25:44 

But what I could do today that was what I was like I want to do it off of what I could do today. 

Natalie DuLaney 25:50 

And kind of for the context for you guys for strong looks like it's also not linear like you don't just get to keep it because done it right like? 

Amber B 25:56 

No, no, I can’t. There's no way in heck I don't even know if I could, like just pull 230 out of the rack right now like  

Natalie DuLaney 26:03 

I think you can pull off 230 off the rack go down, you’d be terrified.  

Amber B 26:05 

I would. I would not make it back up,  

Natalie DuLaney 06:06 

Hey, but at least you could go down with it. 

Amber B 26:11 

Yeah, so, so OK, getting strong. OK. So then the other two was like building muscle and then looking like you lift. So let's talk about time frames for those, because that's a very. It's a very different contextual conversation. Heidi, I think you're the best one to talk about this because, for like reference Nat and I do CrossFit and Heidi has been doing more bodybuilding. And so she's been in that world more. And so I think you can really speak to how much time you've put into it and what you've seen in terms of timing and results. 

Heidi Bollard 26:40 

Yeah, well. Yeah, it's a little bit of a, I have a little bit of a conflicted answer because the reason that. So we went to, we went to bodybuilding during the pandemic, and a combination of focusing on, you know. At that point. At that point, we've done CrossFit for a few years, and I've never really done bodybuilding before, so I even having worked out consistently for several years, I still did get some newbie gains I would say. 

Amber B 27:15 

Yeah you will get newbie gains. Pull it up. 

Heidi Bollard 27:17 

Yeah, for sure, which is, you know, a little bit similar to what Amber was talking about the in the beginning. It just seems like, you know, yeah. Like you, the sky is the limit is a, which is a really exciting feeling. And it did it you know, there was definitely some of that energy and then that was the leanest and the most cut I ever got. Right, which is so this is where we're kind of in the overlap of the Venn diagram because there is a certain you do it is to look like you live to look like bikini pro level lift, which is definitely. I mean, I'm not saying I got there, but you have to be body fat wise, pretty lean in order to reveal that, right. But at that point, you know I, sorry, I didn't mean to make this like my, you know my biography but. So I would say, when it comes to losing body fat, we measure that progress in weeks and months, when it comes to building muscle, we measured that progress in months and years. So you will get a certain boost like a, the old video games we used to play where you could get the Nitro and you go a little faster for a little bit, right like you can get a boost with newbie gains but don't let that fool you into thinking that your progress is going to be that rapid and some people, that's even rapid enough, right, because we get questions about how long is this going to take. So in order to get newbie gains, you want to be able to. You want to be for newbie gains or building muscle, you want to be doing it often enough of consistency and intensely enough that your muscles have to respond by like, she's going to keep doing this. People we got, we got to start. 

Amber B 29:02 

Gotta catch up. 

Heidi Bollard 29:03 

Yeah. And so you have to be eating enough to support that growth, right. So it is like multiple variables need to be kind of lined up in order to make that process happen and it's not the easiest thing in the world to maintain so. Did I answer your question? I kind of got. I kind of got lost in my own memories. 

Amber B 29:02 

No, I think it's, I think it's good. I think one thing that is kind of a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow. And I remember reading about this when I was studying more about like bodybuilding and looking because I went through the same kind of phases. Like I first wanted to get lean. Then I wanted to get really, I wanted to look like I lift. And then I wanted to get really strong, right. So I went through phases of each of those being a goal. And I remember doing some reading when I was in that like bodybuilding phase and them saying, yeah, you're going to have those newbie gains, right? And then it's going to plateau out and it's going to take a lot longer to continue to build muscle, but there is nothing like having years and years and years of weight lifting under your belt. Like there's something that happens to the body and the muscle you build and the way that you look for somebody who's been lifting for 10/15/20 years and it's one of the reasons in the bodybuilding world. A lot of times the older contestants will win versus the younger contestants because they've just had more years of lifting under their belt. Like, there's just something that happens with the muscle that they developed. Physique only can happen over like you said years and not even like 2 years, like five years, 10 years and I don't say that to discourage people from starting because when people get in their head, they're like, oh, well, I haven't been lifting, so why would I even start? But it's like, yeah, 10, 5, 10, 15 years is gonna pass. Where do you wanna be in in that time? So use that as more of a setting realistic expectations like your body. If you're just a brand new lifter, is never going to look like that Instagram model who's been lifting since she was 15 or 20 years old. Like it just takes time to develop a physique that looks like that, and so giving yourself the grace. And I think that you do such a good job of talking about this of like. What's your goal for doing this? If it really only is to like, look like you lift, you're probably gonna quit and get out before you actually get there because you gotta you gotta do it because you want to do it cause you like the lifting, cause you like going, because you enjoy the process. If you are just in it for the gains. And it's 15 years out, you're never going to stick with it long enough to see those developed gains 

Heidi Bollard  31:24 

I totally 1000% agree. 

Natalie DuLaney 31:26 

Well, and even like, let's give you a little bit of context, you could actually be building muscle and doing hypertrophy based per muscle overload for five years. And still not air quote look really aesthetic. A lot of it comes down to genetics, so I think there's even another layer of. 

Amber B 31:41 

Genetics and aids. 

Natalie DuLaney 31:41 

Expectations, right? Because it's, I mean it's, I think it's an interesting thing. I mean, even just like the very abstract, I want to look like I lift. What does that even mean? Right, like you if you can lift weights you look like you lift right like you want to look defined. And you know these, you know, this pops here and this pops here that's actually an aesthetic result, right? Because even when we're all doing CrossFit, and even now it's like we are incredibly strong. And we move a 10. Do I walk out in the world everyone knows that I would. 

Amber B 32:10 

It's like ohh she lifts. 

Natalie DuLaney 32:11 

Or that I can like deadlift a certain amount no like. I probably look a little bit more. Is my posture better? That's actually probably first telling somebody who lifts weight like it's like you actually have better posture, walk a little bit taller like these are like the indicators of someone who looks like they lift someone who is strong, actually walks better, right? Like we have better posture, we embrace our core. We move a lot more confidently because we have a little bit more body awareness like that's what someone who looks like they lift looks like to me. But as far as like looking aesthetic, I mean. My favorite is when people are like, I don't want to do CrossFit because I don't want a CrossFit girl's body. And I'm like, oh, well, if you want to look like a games athlete. Yeah, that doesn't happen till like 95 or like 98% of, like, like Amber and I love to look like CrossFit athlete. Can you imagine, like we’ve been doing cross fitting, what 5-6 years now? I don't look like a CrossFit athlete. 

Amber B 33:00 

I know we're close. 

Natalie DuLaney 33:01 

I mean, it's just that is part of a, their genetics and also time spent right, like and so this is part of it too. It's like, don't worry, sweetheart. You're not going to look like a CrossFit girl, unless you really intentionally go to look like a CrossFit girl, right? Like you put the work in to look like them, and the same thing goes with like the Bikini Pro end of that. Like it's a very intentional process. It doesn't just happen overnight. Right. Like now. Here's where the genetic part comes in. Right. Like we all have. We all have genetic potential to look a certain way, right? And a trained body is always going to look better than an untrained body. Now that better, that “look better”, that's going to be subjective to the individual, right? Like most times, you will walk around and I mean, even we've seen like games, athletes and like, regular clothes, they don't actually look like games athletes. Yeah, they just. Look like normal people and clothes, right? And so, unless you're, like, walking around all the time, flexing great lighting, you know, dressing in a certain way, like 2 air, cool always look like you lift is a very hard aesthetic to match, right? Most people in the mainstream are posing, lighting, they're literally doing this. 

Amber B 34:05 

Getting a pump before they do a photo. 

Natalie DuLaney 34:07 

Exactly, it's like you mean Amber walked you guys through her photo shoot like she did a bunch of push-ups before she did some pictures. It's like they're this, you know, most people don't walk around the I mean, even like Jordan lips, OK, when he flexes everywhere, when he sits there talking to us on zoom and his T-shirt, looks like a normal dude. 

Amber B 34:22

It just looks like, yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 34:24 

Right. And so this is also part of it too. If you're thinking that you want to walk around looking aesthetic all the time, that's also something that's probably unrealistic expectation. Don't get me wrong. Like you're like putting something overhead and my shirt on. Yeah, it'll just show up, right? 

Amber B 34:40 

Let's see it. Yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 34:41 

Because you're using them. But as far as like, you know what, building muscle looks like or what aesthetics look like, those are very intentional processes that take time and sometimes don't even yield the same results. Like I don't know what it would take for me to ever have an upward Jack, Jack, upper body like I don't know that genetically, that's I am capable of it. Like can I be really strong overhead? Yes, arguably. I'm probably stronger overhead than lower depending on the percentages that I can lift, based on what the other ones are, but I don't know that I will ever look as like sculpted is like Heidi and Amber genetically. That's just not. 

Amber B 35:17 

It's not how your body responds. 

Natalie DuLaney 35:19 

Yeah. However, my lower body and my legs can look super lean and jacked, but they don't do as much as my upper body does, right? So, it's also part of that realization that like just because people look a certain way doesn't actually mean they can do the things that you think they do. And just because people don't look a certain way doesn't mean they can't do anything. And that's part of that comparison process and that expectation that we also want to make sure that we're aware of, right? It's like just because someone looks a certain way doesn't mean that they are strong. Or they build a ton of muscle, right? It could be, it's kind of like my 7-year-old's friend, so I'm talking so much, but his friend Luke has a six pack. The guys you know, seven years old. We all know that he didn't do anything for that 6 pack. 

Amber B 35:57 

He get that 6 pack. 

Natalie DuLaney 35:58 

Yeah, he wasn't liking. He wasn't like bulking and cutting. And like whatever. It's just, that's his genetics. And so be careful when you're looking at expectations, that you're not looking at someone’s DNA. And the genetic potential versus like what's available to you, right? Because some of us will naturally land a certain way, which is, per the times, right. Like, what is socially acceptable or desirable right now. And some of us will just, always just be, you know, another way, and neither of them are “right or wrong”. It's just more of like understanding like this is like I understand that I will probably never look super jacked on my upper doesn't mean I mess up doing things. I'm so up top right? 

Amber B 36:38 

And that's what I think is the important part of that statement is. It's like if you're only focusing on the outcome and you don't get the outcome that you want, you're just not going to keep doing it, right? If you're only outcome that was to like, get a jacked up her body and you didn't put in all this work and you didn't get a jacked upper body, you would be super discouraged and you would quit. But the difference and the reason that you don't is because, yeah would you like a jacked upper body? Sure. But like your focus and what you're like in love with is the process you're in love with, like doing the shoulder press, even if it doesn't get you eject upper body, you're in love with doing a a jerk and learning how to like, do these things with your upper body even if it doesn't get you the net result. And so I think that to me, that is the key that I want people to take away. If you really want to do this and you really want to have longevity with lifting weights, and you really want to have longevity with your body, it's like you have to fall in love with the process. I know it's super, you know, double tap on Instagram and we all like oh, like oh, that sounds great. Like, you know, fall in love with the process. But it really is true because Nat wouldn't be here if the only reason she was lifting was to build a jack upper body, she would have quit a long time ago. But she's still here because that's, you know, she loves the process of what you know. 

Natalie DuLaney 34:44 

That's fine. 

Amber B 37:48 

It doesn't matter what result you get. It's like you enjoy the process of it. 

Natalie DuLaney 37:52 

Or like you would just do it anyways, right? It's like we like clean clothes. We do laundry anyways. That's right. We all love to like not do laundry. Sure, but do you like clean clothes? You do, right. And if you like being strong, and if that is something that you really want, it's from a quality of life perspective, which I guarantee you what everybody wants to know. Sometimes this is the process that gets you the life and the longevity that you think like then, well, or to pounds loss will or looking a certain way well. Right, it's like that, like that is the life that like you do this for. 

Amber B 38:20 

Yeah, muscle is the anti aging, you want to anti age, build muscle like that is the key to longevity. 

Heidi Bollard 38:27 

Yeah, and I'll just add one little, one little extra to that, which is like even though I'm doing bodybuilding right now, which is typically for aesthetics, it's because I have a ton of strength imbalances, and I'm working on movement patterns, which is another huge benefit of strength training as you age, you are reinforcing and strengthening the movement patterns that people hire caregivers for, you know, lifting, standing, getting things overhead on 

Amber B 38:54 

Oh, totally. You know who like doesn't throw out their back when they like go to move boxes or people who deadlift yeah, like. As people age, and they do things like throw out their back. Or like whatever it's like if you were stronger, you would be able to do that movement pattern under somewhat of a load because you were your back, had adapted to it. So you know, longevity in terms of injury. In terms of being able to provide, you know, do things for yourself, activities of daily living like adding muscle will keep you younger longer. 

Heidi Bollard 39:28 

Yeah. And build a sense of embodiment which is a total quality of life issue as well. 

Amber B 39:33 

Yeah, OK. Can we talk about cutting? Because I think this is the third one right?  

Natalie DuLaney 39:37 

Oh, yes. 

Amber B 39:39 

This is like the aesthetic which Heidi so well pointed out. It's like the building muscle is part of it, but if you want a “look like you lift”,  that's like oftentimes building muscle and losing fat right? That's, it's a 2 pronged process. So now we get into cutting and I think there's a whole world that we can open up with expectations and entitlement when it comes to cutting and what people expect when they go into that process, especially if they're like I've done it all right, I took the time, I ate at maintenance. I built the muscle and now I want to cut and now I have an expectation that this is going to be magical and all my hard work is going to show up in my body and then get really super disappointed when it doesn't pan out the way that they expect it to. 

Natalie DuLaney 40:19 

So, I think we need to like start with like if you have not done a game phase or not been in maintenance very long. You have not built that much. 

Amber B 40:27 

That’s right. 

Natalie DuLaney 40:27 

Right. And if you've been cutting more than you've not been. You're also not building your best in a deficit by the way. So, for all the people who are like, I want to cut so I can reveal all this muscle. And it's been like 8 weeks or six weeks since you like, just been in your last cut. There's nothing to reveal sister friend, I'm super sorry. Like I mean that. 

Amber B 40:44 

It's not there. 

Natalie DuLaney 40:45 

That was the truth. Right, you're just wasting your time in another cut. Or you don't like the fact that like, you're not in a cut or there's an expectation that you're going to be, I can't even tell you how times you heard like I'm cutting it. I don't see anything, it's like because you can't see something we haven’t built. 

Amber B 40:57 

There's nothing to see. Yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 40:59 

Yeah. So let's take this conversation. Like, let's just assume that you have been intelligently lifting and we're talking about that too, right? I mean, your programming also makes a difference, too. You've just been doing. Sorry, I love CrossFit, but I've been. 

Amber B 41:08 

Happy program. 

Natalie DuLaney 41:10 

Doing CrossFit there for six years. There's nothing to cut to. Not really right. I haven't been, like concentrating on building muscle on aesthetics. Right. So for an aesthetic purpose, right? So that is part of it too. So getting into a deficit and like what you can “reveal” requires there to be something to reveal in the first place so that timeline spend more time lifting than you're not. You know, that is really what's going to like benefit you from like a cut down to reveal all this “muscle thing” that people say, right. 

Heidi Bollard 41:40 

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we're talking to give an example like an intelligent program would be something that includes several compound movements, some accessory work like you're spending an, you know, an hour, three to five times a week, at least an hour. Like working. 

Natalie DuLaney 42:03 

Yeah, I mean put it this way if. You're feeling kind of bored. You're doing it right,  

Heidi Bollard 42:08 

And then you're lifting. You're pushing yourself to lift heavy over time. You're eating enough calories to support that your gathering covering. 

Natalie DuLaney 42:16 

Working or sleeping, yes. 

Heidi Bollard 42:17 

I mean, we'd say. I mean including newbie gains in that process, maybe even your loadings with some creatine, like you'd probably start to note. I would, I would think you'd start to notice some definition again based on the person and the amount of body fat that you have. 6, 8 like 10, 12 months, something like that we're talking about. You're starting to see definition. Not all of a sudden you just like, you know 

Amber B 42:43 

You look, Jack. 

Heidi Bollard 42:44 

You pop out of shower one day and you're like, holy crap, I'm jacked. 

Natalie DuLaney 42:47 

You know, like we took someone out the other day. Yeah, you know, was popping. 

Heidi Bollard 42:50 

Yeah, it's going to be just like, just like you're slowly adding weight, you know., to what you can lift, you like, it's like, I mean, if you, if everything is in line. If all the starts are lined, we are looking at like possibly a half pound to a pound of muscle a month. 

Amber B 43:08 

Yeah. Yeah and it's a lot like fat loss in that it happens really slowly, and oftentimes your mental image doesn't catch up with it. Like it doesn't. You don't see it, and so you look at yourself and even lifting for six months and you're like, I don't see anything, but you have to remember, that's because you've looked at your body every day for the last six months, and your brain, just like, doesn't see the change. So this is where I really encourage if your goal is to build muscle like you gotta be taking relax and flexing progress pictures because you will start to see that probably not even in your relaxed photos, but you'll start to see it hopefully in your flexing photos and that will give you a realistic perspective instead of just like looking in the mirror and being like, well, I don't think anybody thinks changed. It's like, yeah, it's cause it happens slowly,  

Natalie DuLaney 43:52 

Totally. And measurements, too. 

Amber B 43:52 

And measurements. 

Heidi Bollard 43:54 

And yeah. And that you're really being attentive to the process like you're watching foreign videos and you're making your, you know, you're keeping notes of where you're at and you're really taking the process seriously. I think it's like Sohee Fit has an analogy about like the paper towels. Like when you're losing body fat. It's like it's just a very, it's a really good point Amber.  

Amber B 44:18 

Yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 44:18 

And also we usually throw out there, you're just not that objective by yourself, sorry. 

Heidi Bollard 44:23 

Oh yeah, totally. 

Amber B 44:24 

None of us are right. 

Natalie DuLaney 44:30 

But it's also just like most people are like. I mean, if you're catching yourself in some killer lighting. It's also highly recommended. 

Amber B 44:38 

Yeah, top down, lighting,  

Natalie DuLaney 44:39 

Top down. And also at night, like when you're about to like get into bed like is probably when you look the most jacked right? Like dim. It's kind of like in your car, right when you have like the Uh, your car? The car right here. When you look at night time and check your light and you and you're so glowy and pretty and happy and just kind of same, it’s recommended. I would recommend. 

Amber B 45:02 

I want to talk about cutting, like cutting multiple times because, you know, we're all of us are really big on, like, don't just sit there and just cut for like till your eyeballs fall out, right? It's like we need to be cycling through cutting, reversing, maintaining, maybe going into a bulk, going into a self thing like. 

Heidi Bollard 45:20 

Sorry. I'm still laughing about that. 

Natalie DuLaney 45:22 

Your eyeballs just like we have a lot of problem.  

Heidi Bollard 45:25 

One day, like punk, punk in your honey. 

Amber B 45:27 

Too far, too far. But then you’re doing it. 

Heidi Bollard 45:31 

A pop in my head. 

Amber B 45:34 

If you're doing it right. Like you're probably going to have more than one cut and something that Nat and I were talking about is the expectation that your first cut is going to look like your third cut is going to look like your 5th cut is going to look like cut three years from now. And then when it doesn't, you're like, what the heck? What's wrong? Am I doing something wrong and recognizing that every single time that you go through a a cut or a maintenance or any of the phases like it's a new time, you're at a new phase, you're in a new part of your journey and it's not going to look exactly the same as it did last time. 

Natalie DuLaney 46:05 

And not even close like even if you did one like six months ago, it's going to look different from the one in like 3 months from now and. Just it's a real mistake to assign your progress and your results on something that's happened in the past. I mean it's like same thing we were talking about a little bit ago. Like, just because you've lifted it before doesn't mean you can lift it again all the time consistently. It's just you're a different person. Lots of factors are involved in having a successful cut and so really the most experts will tell you to just take it as is like start it from exactly where you're at and like assess the situation that way and what's realistic for you. Once again, that word realistic, What's possible for you? Is this a good timeline? I mean, you are not the same person you were even six months ago. So to treat a cut like it was six months ago, I mean, I can't even tell you probably how much has changed like I've done this before. I've done this before or like I mean I know how to count macros, or I know that it's like, that's wonderful. And you see a little bit of context of like results and maybe what's possible for you, but it's not going to ever look the same like I don't know that there's ever been a time I've cut, they're probably cut maybe five or six times since my very first one, counting macros and they've never been the same, not the same results, not the same timelines, not the same amount of like results in inches and things like that. Like they're different every single time, so approaching it fresh is really, really key, and you owe it to yourself to give yourself, you know, use the knowledge you've curated in the past from what has been successful for you, and what is that I'm talking from like a what's realistic to track for me. Am I a pre logger? Does that system work for me? Does this type of method work for me? But as far as it from a results perspective, you would do right by yourself to be like, let's just see how this goes and then make decisions from there. 

Amber B 47:47 

I love me a metaphor, and the metaphor that was coming to my head was almost like when I was in College, where it was like if I went into a class and even though I had taken a, you know, a similar class, I always had to start the class and realize this is a different class. It's going to take different things and like you said, yeah, I take OK, last time taking these types of notes really helped or this type of study aid really was helpful or this type of, you know, schedule was really helpful. And so I can take that from the other class but it's a completely different class and the grade that I get in this class is not going to be the same grade that I got in the last class. It's going to be a different experience. And so I think that's a really good way to approach subsequent cut, subsequent maintenance, subsequent anything of like yes, I can take what I've learned from the previous, but really coming in with that like this is a new experience and I'm just going to take it one day at a time and see how things go and make decisions based off of where I'm at not based off what I did in the past. 

Heidi Bollard 48:41 

Totally. It's so funny the way we., you know, we're talking about like all these confusing goals and where they overlap and where they're different and whatnot. One of my favorite all time comments about betting was I'm a math teacher. This shouldn't be too hard. Being good at math has anything to do counting macros, I love it. This person or something it's like it's like. So good anyway. And it's interesting too, how like remember how I, remember how overwhelming counting macros was in the beginning like it was, so I mean Amber you were my coach like so? Like, it seemed like it was. There's the learning curve is so steep in the beginning and you think that it feels like such an obstacle but it's funny how that ends up being the lack of that obstacle ends up being. You kind of it ends up you kind of missing you like having a northern star right, because now it's just like it was, its own form of entertainment, right? Of like trying to figure it out and trying to find creative solutions and trying to how the hell am I going to hit my protein? And like all that kind of stuff. And then the next time you do it. You're like, well, I should know all about already. It should be automatic right then, and any time there's should involved in your thinking, that is like a red flag for sure. Just being careful, I mean it's just interesting how not to get all of a sudden like super existential or anything.  

Natalie DuLaney 50:11 

Please do. 

Heidi Bollard 50:11 

But there's yeah, it's whether there's, like, a story in Buddhism about, like this guy goes through a series of trials. Let us say, I wish I could remember that the things are escaping me now but it was like you know. He had a bunch of chickens like that escaped or something and he and then because that happened, something good happened, right? Like he was able to use the land for planting or something. So every time something happened, instead of freaking out, he'd say., is it a good thing or is it? Is it a good thing or is it a bad thing? Right. Like me, realizing I had to strengthen balance. Was, I thought was a bad thing, but it set me on like a different path of building my body awareness and working on movement patterns. And now I appreciate working out in a very different way, right? So, is it a good thing or a bad thing? And having the overwhelm of trying to figure out how to fit macros into your lifestyle. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Because then later you're like, oh, it should already be here. It shouldn't be so hard and you start beating up on yourself in a different way. So I think you guys are exactly right. Of course, like approaching every cut like it's different and realizing like where are the energy drains in my life? What is? How can I make this easier? How can I make room for this? How can I make my lifestyle more supportive? Because yeah, like when power lifting is your goal, you can get to 235 when it is not your main focus, you can't, right and same thing with any of us, right? Like it has to be if it's going to be a major focus like this is what you want to do. It cannot be an add on habit, just like Willy nilly like. Oh, I think we'll just squeeze this in as if it's not. It's literally taking energy away from your life, literally in the form of calorie deficit that's going to require some compensation in other areas, and that hence we have the trade of is it worth it and what do you need to do and how do you need to shift your life in order to accommodate this new focus on this goal? 

Amber B 52:20 

So I think it's, I think it's interesting too, Heidi, because you know I coached you when nuance as a coach, was not. I was a new coach, right? So, it's like here's this tool and I give it to my client. And yeah, you're gonna count all three macros and you're gonna do it well and you're gonna figure it out and it becomes this thing. And you brought up Buddhism, so I'm gonna bring up another Buddhist philosophy, which is this idea of the finger pointing at the moon. Have you heard this one? So it's this idea that so often times there's this finger that's pointing at the moon and we focus so much on the finger instead of what it's pointing to. And I think that this happens a lot in macro counting, where instead of focusing on the moon, which is like the outcome you want and what it's offering you, we focus on the finger and we become really dogmatic about here's exactly how you have to count macros and you have to do all three. And you have to zero out your macros. And if you, you know that that's what we gotta work on. That's where we gotta get you to. And in my mind, that's focusing on the finger that's pointing to the moon, not actually where you want to go. Which is, which is the moon itself. And so obviously, you know, I've grown as a coach, we've all grown as coaches and realizing like that dogma of having the thing be the macros and having that be the thing that we focus so much time and energy and attention on as coaches, we realize that that it's missing the mark. It's missing what we're actually trying to get people to. 

Natalie DuLaney 53:35 

Yeah, I think it's like the, it's with your analogy to kind of continue with the moon. It's like, how important is it for you to get to that moon, right? Like you think that you know, if you watch hidden figures we love that movie, it's like lots of things had to happen for you to get to the moon. Lots of things failed. Lots of things in work, lots of reevaluation, lots feeding. 

Amber B 53:50 

Well, different than you thought it would be. 

Natalie DuLaney 53:51 

Yes, it's I mean and every single time you go to the moon, it's going to be a different experience no matter what, right.  

Heidi Bollard 53:57 

So weird that you're bringing this up because there's a song lyric this morning that was like, I'm going to get to the moon. Even if I have to crawl and I was like, oh, that's so interesting. You cannot get to the moon. It's not, your only crawl, right. 

Natalie DuLaney 54:07 

And it's like we have this, you know, like you know, this whole podcast in a nutshell. It's like, you know, if the work is too hard for you and it's not worth it to you, then you get to reevaluate what is realistic for you right. 

Amber B 54:20 

Yes and there’s no shame in that. And I think let's take the shame out of this. Of like, well, I'm not good enough. I'm not. I'm not willing to do 4-hour cardio things and that means like I I'm a loser like. Let's take the shame out of it. I mean, like, it's not worth it for me and I get to decide where I put my priorities. That's important. 

Natalie DuLaney 54:36 

And one of like one of the biggest goal killers, I think is this belief though like I work so hard where my results are I worked so hard already. You know, it's like saying like the person that has two jobs should be making more money than a person with one job because they work so hard. It's like everything is it's all context, right? It's all it depends and you know, one of the things I love about always Heidi brings up. It's like shame, you know, is acting for, like, should have already mastered everything. It's like there is no point where you will do that. Even the masters of masters will tell you that there's still things for them to work on because that is part of the process, right, the moon process is an ever ongoing one, right? And maybe it's not worth it for you to go to the moon this time, but there's also beauty and acknowledging your goals and your expectations around that as well. It's like it's not, it's not moon time for me, right? 

Heidi Bollard 55:20 

Totally. And if you're not able to get to. If that feels impossible to make that call of like this goal isn't worth it, that could be an indication that your worth is wrapped up in that goal, realizing that you know, what makes you, you and where you're worth wise. Right. Like if you lose body fat, it's that version of you, the real you. If you gain body, if you lose an arm, if you like these different things that we qualify as like you know, “the real US” or the better us. You know that said, the same type of energy when people confuse consistency with perfection, right? Just like the arm hang, the desperate arm hang of like I can't feel better until I get to this place. And it's just you the again, it's your relationship with the process that determines how it feels and your self esteem is always going to be limited by the parts of yourself that you feel, that we find the most objectionable. So it really, I love, I love this business that we're in of like the duality of like the physical data but also all of the like. All the opportunity you have to learn about yourself in the process. 

Amber B 56:44 

Totally. It makes  me think of the Dunning Kruger effect to where when you're early on in your journey, you tend to think you know more than y0ou really do. And then the further you are in your journey, the more you realize how little you know and how little you understand. And I see that a lot of times with people when it comes to like macro counting or it comes to their fitness journey, is like you think you have all the knowledge when you're brand spanking new and you just are just to put in the effort and you're going to get the result like 

Natalie DuLaney 57:12 

You have to follow the plan. 

Amber B 57:11 

Just all the plan and it's just like super easy. And when you become more advanced and more experienced, you recognize that that's super silly. Super silly. And I thought that way and realize that you actually know way less than you thought you did, and I think that's where you come into each subsequent cut. Being like I know nothing. Like I don't know what this is gonna be like and that is a more mature and a more elevated way to go through this process and actually shows that you know more when you admit what you don't know. 

Natalie DuLaney 57:43 

Yeah, the experts will look for the things they don't know, not go only hand on the things that they do. And that's really what this whole thing is about. It's like a trial and error for yourself, right? Like, yeah, it took me a long time to realize that, like, I wouldn't have certain static results. And then now I can have peace with it, right? You can take it off the table. And then my trip to the Moon looks a lot different, right? 

Amber B 58:04 

Really good. 

Heidi Bollard 58:05 

Totally. And pretending things like aren't challenging, is not like positive thinking. But it's so it's OK. To say it, and it's hard, Angie can do it you know. 

Amber B 58:16 

Well, what you talked about, I think too. That's also in a more mature way to think about things. When you talk about duality, it's like the more mature we are, the more we're able to hold that duality of like, this is hard and I can do it when you're when you're thinking is less mature it it becomes binary, it becomes one or the other and the more mature way is understanding both. You can hold both seemingly opposing things simultaneously and be able to handle those paradoxes and manage them. 

Heidi Bollard 58:43 

You can feel two things at once. Yes, absolutely. 

Natalie DuLaney 58:47 

Well, we just solved the world’s problems. What did it take? 45 minutes. Look at those realistic expectations.  

Amber B 58:55 

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. 

Heidi Bollard 58:57 

We talked about Buddhism twice. I mean, I think we took it to the existential, you know, what is extreme? 

Natalie DuLaney 59:05 

Put me on the mountain. 

Amber B 59:09

OK. Last anything you guys want like takeaways, you want someone to take away from this episode.

Heidi Bollard 59:19 

Wow, I mean I think the risk of repeating myself? I mean, I think that taking this as an opportunity to deepen your relationship with yourself and with your body is actually like, is going to transform your life in way more ways than you could ever dream of. But I believe I used to ever think that working out was superficial because it's been a, it's created a profound shift in my life and my identity and you know, arguably like taking on getting strong as a part of your identity, I think is a great way to stay motivated and stick to it in a way that focusing on an aesthetic result or a number on the scale just can never be.  

Natalie DuLaney 01:00:15 

Yeah. Amen. And I think for me, if I have to sit here. You know, and you know what year, almost year eight of everything, it's. The best thing I could have ever done for myself was to allow myself to be a real version of myself, right? And I don't have to chase a different version of Natalie like I can allow her to evolve in the way that she's going to go and ask myself, what do I really want? What is really important to me., is that really important to me, do I really need to have this result to be “happy” and I also OK. Being a little bit disappointed that I can't access this but at the same time doing really fine about it, right? It's like sometimes in order to be a real person, by examining what's realistic for you can actually bring you a lot of peace, right? And so I think if you could ask yourself, like, sure, I mean, it's like, it's ironic how we want this like, everyone, like, wants this one-size-fits-all answer for everything. But at the same time, everyone just trying to be smaller, right? And it's like when you allow yourself a more, bigger, fuller life, which includes being strong and realizing that you're capable of one and not saying no to things or realizing that your mood might be a different and it might be a different trajectory. Right, like that is when you feel the most like yourself. And I know that takes like a that might be more of like a Buddhist, like imagining where you like, pass it for a million years and you realize, like, what you really need in life. But at the same time, it's like I realize the second I stopped chasing something but very specific for myself. I was open to more possibilities than ever, and so it's like. Really, that's what it comes down to. It's like if you have six. I will probably never have a six pack and I can't tell you how amazing it feels to know that about it, right? Like so these questions and these revelations to yourself can be some of the most freeing things you do for yourself too, so ask yourself.  

Heidi Bollard 01:01:55 

I hate the risk of bringing up Buddhism another time. Thinking about how like chasing, only chasing positive experiences and inherently negative experience, whereas accepting your negative experiences, is an inherently positive experience. 

Amber B 01:02:10 

Well, I think what Nat is saying too is that oftentimes when we don't meet our expectations, we think that that has to produce disappointment. I think what you're saying is actually that was a really freeing experience for you to set something and not hit it and make peace with that. It doesn't have to be, and that's been really freeing for you to, like, let go of that expectation. 

Heidi Bollard 01:02:30 

And not only what, like, not only one emotion like disappointment and free. Who would have thought? 

Amber B 01:02:34 

Yes. Right. I think the last thing that I want to leave with people is that I think a lot of people get into lifting and fitness journey and working out and macros for the way that they think it will make them look. And I think people stay with it for the way that it makes them feel. And I think that when you can again it's, I know it's super cliche. It's like when you can enjoy the process, when you can wake up and be excited to go to the gym or excited for what you're doing. You can let go of how it's going to change your body or how it's going to make you look or whatever, and you can just be in the journey and keep taking one step after the other. And so for those of you who are who are contemplating starting a journey, contemplating starting, lifting, feeling intimidated by what we talked about, of how it maybe it's going to take you months to years to really to be able to have a physical change, recognize that you may start because you want that physical change, but I guarantee you anybody who is lifting 5/10/15 years from after they start, they're not doing it for the aesthetic, they're doing it because that's how it makes them feel. 

Heidi Bollard 01:03:37 

Totally. It might take you the rest of your life to get strong and that's the good news, right? 

Amber B 01:03:41 

So good, so good. OK, well, this has been fabulous. Thanks guys for sitting and chatting and having such a good conversation and it's not gonna be a year again, yeah. 

Heidi Bollard 01:03:49 

This is like it's the longest we've been able to talk and you know a while it's like between sets track. 

Amber B 01:03:54 

I know, because we, it's usually in between sets, in between, yeah. 

Natalie DuLaney 01:03:59 

There's a lot different when you have some breath too. 

Heidi Bollard 01:04: 01 

I know right. 

Amber B 01:04:02 

We can say a little bit more. 

Natalie DuLaney 01:04:05 

All right. See you tomorrow. 

Amber B 01:04:09 

Alright, so good. Thanks guys.  

Heidi Bollard 01:04:09 

Bye. 

Amber B 01:04:10 

Heidi and Nat are awesome. I feel lucky to count them in my friends definitely check out their podcast. It's called The Butter Dish. They are fantastic. They are hilarious, they are super smart and witty and really know their things. And I definitely, you know, you could call us competitors. Sure, fine. But I love what they're putting out in the world, and I think we need more coaches that are like them. So no competition here, just support for some two amazing people who I'm just proud to be able to be a friend with and hopefully you like this a little unstructured style, a little bit more rambly. But again, these are just kind of like an insight into some of the conversations that we're having at the gym and we thought it would be fun to bring it here on the podcast. If you like this podcast do me a favor, send this episode to a friend or take the time and leave a rating game review on whatever platform you're listening on. It takes like 3 to 5 minutes, which is not a lot of time, and it makes a world of difference for me and for the podcast and for the growth. This is a free content that I put out so if you want to say, Thank you, you don't have to pay any money to get the content. All you have to do is leave a rating and review and that is just a great way to give back and to say thank you for the content that is put on to the podcast. That wraps up this episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm Amber, now go out and be strong because remember, my friend, you can do anything. 

Outro

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