347: How Menopause Changes Everything (And What You Can Do About It) with Heidi Bollard and Natalie Dulaney

Introduction 

You're listening to Biceps After Babies Radio Episode 347.

Hello and welcome to Biceps After Babies Radio. A podcast for ladies who know that fitness is about so much more than pounds lost or PR's. It's about feeling confident in your skin and empowered in your life. I'm your host Amber Brueseke, a registered nurse, personal trainer, wife and mom of four. Each week my guests and I will excite and motivate you to take action in your own personal fitness as we talk about nutrition, exercise, mindset, personal development and executing life with conscious intention. If your goal is to look, feel and be strong and experience transformation from the inside out, you my friend are in the right place. Thank you for tuning in. Now, let's jump into today's episode.

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm your host, Amber Brueseke, and if you are in your 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s beyond, today's episode is one that you need to hear because my friends Heidi and Natalie and I are talking about a topic that's often brushed aside or simply just minimized by talking about just hot flashes and mood swings, but the reality of menopause and perimenopause is so much more nuanced and, let's be honest, kind of confusing.  

And so I brought in two of my very most favorite people, Heidi and Natalie from Butter Your Macros, to help unpack a little bit of what this phase of life really looks like. And they are awesome because they get really real and honest as they're starting to navigate perimenopause, what it has felt like and looked like for them. And they're getting honest about the changes they've experienced, the unexpected body aches, the how to navigate the sleep struggles, and dealing with the shifts in workouts and weight distribution and weight gain. So if you're like me and the idea of letting go of control and embracing these changes that happen just naturally as we age feels a little out of your comfort zone, and maybe you're also like me and you're trying to find that balance between controlling what you can control while letting go of the things you can't control, this conversation is going to maybe strike a chord with you. It is raw, it is relatable, and it's packed with insights to help you not only survive, but really to thrive in that next chapter, in that next phase of life. So whether you are past menopause, you are solidly in perimenopause, or you're like me on the precipice of perimenopause, this episode is such a great listen. And as always, I love having Natalie and Heidi on the podcast. So let's jump into that interview. 

Amber B 02:43 

All right. Welcome back to the podcast for, I don't know, what are we like, fourth, fifth, seventh time? You guys are welcome as many times as you want. Heidi and Nat from Butter Your Macros. We were just chatting before and I just finally was like, I'm hitting record. You're saying way too many good things, Natalie. We got to hit record so everybody can hear them. Okay. So we have kind of changed topics a couple of times, and I honestly don't know what we're going to really talk about. We're just going to get started. And I'm entrusted, like, it's going to be amazing because every time I chat with you guys, something amazing comes out of it.  

So I think to maybe frame this out and to kind of just start our conversation, we've had lots of conversations because we've been working out together since like 2018, and here it is 2024, you know, six years later, and we are all, our bodies, us, we're all in a different place than we were in 2018. So I just kind of want to talk about what that's been like, especially in the last little while you guys have been talking and experiencing more of the perimenopause symptoms, and that's been a wrench, you know, thrown into your experience. So I'm just going to kind of open the floor to like having you guys share a little bit of maybe what that's looked like over the last couple of years, what body changes you've had, what physical changes you've had and how you've had to kind of start to adjust things based off of that.  

Natalie Dulaney 04:00 

Okay. So I think what's been really interesting is to kind of reflect back, like, as we've, even just looking at the online space and how much it's changed from what we used to talk about and what we used to be so rabbit, wholly obsessed about with macro counting, it's changed so much as we've changed. And I think what's been an interesting evolution to watch is how the, you know, even nine years ago is when we actually started Butters and you were even in the macro counting space, even before that Amber, you coached Heidi, I got numbers from you in the very beginning. And I think even fitness at that time was such a new thing for both of us. And to be able to sit here like nine years later, having regularly exercised for those nine years, having focused on nutrition for those last nine years and all the beautiful big rocks and little rock habits that come along with that. It's been really interesting to see how many of those things don't work the same in the space of nine years, as well as how your body has absolutely changed over. I mean, I guess we could say almost a decade of time. And what I think Heidi and I are realizing I just turned 45. She's about to turn 46. We started macro counting in our 30s, like really actually kind of mid 30s. And so to think that there's a point where you're like, oh, once I figure this all out, it's smooth sailing from here. And I'm just gonna get better and better and better. And I won't ever have to like struggle with my weight or my body composition or my mental health or my habits or my sleep is going to be amazing is total and utter trash because it's not meant to be discouraging at all. It's more to be more investigative and curiosity about in book and curiosity than anything. I feel like, especially since most of your listeners, as well as ours have been with us for quite a long time. And as they have aged, as we have aged, as even you have aged, I mean, when you were a wee one and now you're in your forties, welcome.  

Amber B 05:45 

Yup. 

Natalie Dulaney 05:46 

I think that it's important to have a conversation about what that looks like as we evolve as women, what there are things that are out of our control, things that are in our control, things that we can do to help ourselves out, to have the best possible future for ourselves. I think that for a long time, we believe that we could beat that age old adage of like, oh, after 40, you go to die or you're put out to pasture or you're over the hill and all these things. And now that I'm 45, I'm like, oh, there was actually a lot of wisdom in that and scientific proof that that was actually supposed to be the case. So it'd be fun to have a conversation about it. I'd love to know what you've noticed as you are newly entering this decade of your life. And then Heidi and I, who are definitely on the end of closer to exiting it, maybe. Well, I mean, It's not soon, but I think that there's definitely, it's not the same. I would say straight up, you are, you're not 35 and 36.  

Amber B 06:40 

Oh, for sure.  

Natalie Dulaney 06:41 

And so to act as such, or to expect as such, and depending on the individual, of course, per usual, you actually might be in a better place in your fifties than you were in your thirties. I mean, it really just depends on like where you were coming from. But I think this belief that we always have to try to be as young as possible or get back to our 20 year old self is like such crap. 

Heidi Bollard 07:00 

Totally. Well, and even, even some like allowing yourself and your habits to evolve as, as you, as you age as well, you know, when we first started, it was like, Uh, we were just working out of our houses, like a lot of body weight stuff. And then we joined CrossFit and that was really exciting. Um, and we got, we got some really found like foundational habits in place, like five days a week. Like we, and it was fun to like, take it seriously and work really hard and challenge ourselves and all those kinds of things. Um, for, for me, like, honestly, it was, um, it was like about 2022, I think. Um, when we were at the gym together and I was like, I don't remember even what, if it was a picture or what, but all of a sudden it became like super obvious to me that one of my shoulders is higher than the other one. Um, and that that's why I was having, I was having a ton of like neck and shoulder stuff go on at that time. So, uh, like the proof was undeniable. Like I, like once I could see it, I couldn't unsee it and realize that just, um, when I, when I'm not work, when I'm going, doing a workout where I'm going as fast as I can, I unconsciously overuse one side. 

So anyway, I took some time off of CrossFit, went back to bodybuilding to try to balance that out and was doing some PT stuff. Um, and then I started to realize like, you know, trying to cram all of that in, um, while you guys were doing CrossFit at like 5:30 in the morning, it was like, like, I just started to realize like between tracking my recovery, I just could not get back on. I could not like my recovery was always, always in the toilet. Um, and I just started to feel like I was working hard without making any progress in any area. So, um,  

Amber B 08:54 

That’s been in your wheels. 

Heidi Bollard 08:55 

Yeah, exactly. So then I kind of pulled back on CrossFit and started lifting at home and that's what I'm doing now. Um, I go into CrossFit maybe on a good week, like twice a week. Um, but it's, for me, it's been a shift. Like I just had to take because the, uh, like what worked for me then wasn't working anymore. And it was really hard for me to make that change. Lots of FOMO, lots of, um, you know, doubting, doubting the necessity of it and whatnot. But, um, really it's made a lot of the, a lot of big, huge difference in my, um, mental health for sure. And my, and for sure my recovery, because I just, that chronotype that sleep type that like I go to bed a little bit later and I wake up a little bit later. Um, and that may offend some of the puritanical worth work ethic in this country. If only everything could start at 10 AM, I would be like the biggest go-getter you ever met. That's a bunch of random thoughts, but that basically kind of what we're saying. I mean, when these changes started coming up of disrupted sleep, lots of injuries, um, feeling like when I woke up and did a crazy wad, it just haunted me all day. Like I just felt crappy all day and just actually listening to those signals for once instead of overriding them with like, just, you know, just be more motivated. 

Amber B 10:18 

Yeah. Keep going. Push harder. 

Heidi Bollard 10:21 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. It's just been an interesting learning, learning process. Me with me. That makes sense. 

Amber B 10:29 

I mean, I think one of the things that I'd love to dive into with you guys, cause I feel like you guys are the sage wisdom holders and I'm just like following in your footsteps and I just get to learn from you ahead of time so that as I go through it, uh, I can, you know, know ahead of time what's going on. I mean, I think the hard thing for me and maybe for other people, and you guys can speak to this, if this is challenging for you, it's that balance between, you said this, Nat like between what you can control and what you can't control. And it's like, we drive ourselves nuts with trying to control the things we can't control. And then, but be feel very empowered when we control the things that we can control. And so, you know, great example of that Heidi is like, you realize I can't necessarily control how my body recovers, but I can control what time I'm waking up and that influences my recovery. So that's within my control. I'm going to change that. And that's going to be better for me. So how do, but how do you make that distinction? I feel like that line gets really fuzzy as aging happens. And as menopause happens where it's like what you can control versus what you can't control is different than what you used to be able to control and what you couldn't control at a younger age. So how do you find that line and not just sit back and be like, well, it's all menopause's fault and I don't have any control. We don't want that, but we also don't want to go too gung-ho and kill ourselves and put ourselves in the ground because we're trying to overdo it. 

Natalie Dulaney 11:43 

Well, unfortunately, I think as women, we definitely tend to kill ourselves before we come to the conclusion that that probably wasn't a good idea. And I think that that is so unfortunate because in an effort to, whether it's like ourselves more, win our own self-approval, prove ourselves even to other people. I mean, wherever you are, as far as in your self-awareness, self-love journey, there's a lot of competing factors that make you want to believe that like I can get to a place where I'm at a pinnacle of like who I am and how successful I am and how I feel about myself. And as long as I do these things and maintain this kind of energy or dedication or motivation or whatever the hell you want to call it to this level of confidence that I've achieved before, then really I should be unstoppable. And it's not that you aren't anymore. It's just that you really have to start making concessions to the things that become priorities. And also, by the way, live your life on the side. You still have children who are getting older and aging. And believe it or not, I can not even believe how much older children are so much harder than younger children. 

Heidi Bollard 12:40 

My gosh, totally. 

Natalie Dulaney 12:41 

As far as from like an emotional, mental taxing kind of perspective, it's just way different. Not that little kids are easy by any means. It's just a different kind of hard. And so I think we have this belief that, oh, as we get older, we have more time or, you know, we can pursue other things or we have time to be the or the fittest place in our life. And I think that comes down to like, what can you prioritize for yourself? That's realistic. Like anything else, any good habits. And then also what has to take priority if you're sleeping like crap. And I feel like I have been sleeping really poorly for probably the last five years. And not just because we've been waking up so early. I've definitely, my body clock has been accustomed to waking up for CrossFit hours, but there is a lot of time. And even this morning, I, you know, kind of woke up and I'm like, let me guess. It's, is it you 2 AM and it was, I mean, I, I regularly wake up at two and then go, you know, God willing, I get back to sleep before I have to get back up at 4:45. But now sometimes I just stay awake and just go to the gym because instead of laying in bed for four hours and then trying to sleep the whole entire time, I'm just like, I'll just try to fit a nap in somewhere. But, you know, initially I'd had like a Dutch test. And of course we know all the sleep hygiene. And I think that's also been something that's been really interesting is that you'll have these things happening to you. And you're like, I know actually how to give advice for this thing. And then it doesn't even work for you. And then you feel like, Holy crap. How am I like encouraging women to like work on their sleep? You know, what's it called? Sleep.. 

Heidi Bollard 14:00 

Sleep hygiene. 

Natalie Dulaney 14:01 

Sleep hygiene. See, this is brain fog, sleep hygiene. 

Heidi Bollard 14:03 

Dude you notice? 

Natalie Dulaney 14:04 

And like every box is ticked down to like, I couldn't have a darker room, cooler room, wind down time, like all the things. And I'm still waking up at that time. So I did like a Dutch test probably it's probably been five years now. And of course it's like elevated cortisol when I sleep and blah, blah, blah. But like, with the exception of like a handful of like supplements that were recommended to me, there was really no salt for it. And then as I started talking about it on Instagram, a lot of women were recommending HRT, which is definitely controversial on its own. And we could probably be its own podcast, but you know, it's one of those things you just tuck in the back of like, Oh, maybe I could figure it out. Maybe I don't really need that. Maybe I don't have to go there. Or also going to the doctor is a lot of work. You got to make an appointment and blah, blah. I mean, I'm definitely due for a mammogram and stuff like that, which this past two weeks, I'm like, Oh crap, sign me up for everything. But that's it. We'll, we'll get to that. But I think getting curious about what the priorities are.  

And so there was a window earlier this year when I was having a lot of high stress events in my life. My, one of my daughters had like a spontaneous suicide assessment at school. She was a, she's a, she was a fifth grader at the time. That was really hard. My grandfather was dying. My father was dying. Like I ended up losing my grandfather and my father this year, like five months apart. And so I had to prioritize sleep and I was not going to CrossFit four to five days a week. I was lucky if I eked out one day, I actually did at least eke out one day a week, but it was all about sleeping and trying to recover and feel better and to reduce my stress and all these things. And so then on the tail end, you feel really bad because you're not exercising a ton and you're not doing all these things. You're not lifting heavy. And then when you would go back in and you'd be like, wow, cool. So now, you know, a two 25 deadlift is really exhausting when before you were crushing iron numbers or whatever it was. And so I think there's a lot of life events that are happening in your life that you're, you've maybe even been able to dodge for a couple of years, or you're just having to prioritize different ways to care for yourself, which is not really easy for women because we want to do it all. And we also want it to be like, I've done all this before, so I should be able to do it all again, but on less energy, less sleep, more stress. 

Amber B 16:06 

Older body. 

Heidi Bollard 16:07 

Yeah.  

Amber B 16:08 

All the things. 

Natalie Dulaney 16:09 

I don't even know if I even answered the question. I just realized,  

Amber B 16:12 

I mean, I think, I mean, the question was, how do you differentiate between what you can control, what you can't, especially as it changes.  

Natalie Dulaney 16:18 

Okay. And so to answer that question as simply as possible, I think you really have to become your own science experiment.  

Amber B 16:23 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 16:24 

You have to see like, what factors am I controlling and what am I unable to control with even the control, right? I mean, your body's going to tell you, like, if you're trying your best to do all the things for great sleep and you're not sleeping, you should get curious about that. 

Heidi Bollard 16:37 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 16:38 

If you are tracking your macros and eating your protein and getting your steps in and checking all the boxes and you're gaining weight, or you're not seeing the improvements that you thought you would, you should get curious. Like, I know it's easy for us to be like, well, you just suck is like our default answer or like, you're just like an anomaly. But I think that there's more to get curious about, especially if you're over 30 or 35 years old, then you think there is. 

Heidi Bollard 17:01 

Agreed. I mean, sometimes it's just, sometimes it's just like noticing how you feel. I mean, one of the, you know, it was kind of just like an aha moment when I was getting kind of frustrated not being able to finish my entire bodybuilding workout in that like 50 minute window. Um, that kind of made me realize like, well, like I would work out for longer if I had, if I had longer than 50 minutes, I like doing it. So why not find a time where I can actually, so now it's more, it takes me more like 90 minutes and I love it and look forward to it and can fit it in much easier in my schedule. But it was really hard to come to that conclusion because I love working out with you guys. Do you know what I mean? Like it was, it was a big sacrifice, but I just had to, like, I just had to, I just had to look at it and be, and be like, this is, is, is the juice worth the squeeze in this scenario and, um, and like, and make the call. Cause you guys know how it is with teenagers. I mean, they never think you're more interesting than after like 10 30 at night. And then  

Amber B 18:05 

Why? If that is my son. It's like, right. He wants to come and chit chat and tell me all about his life at 9.00 PM. And I am like laying in bed, ready to go to sleep. And he wakes up. I'm like, you didn't talk to me all day. And now he just wants to tell me about everything. And I'm like, why is it 9.00 PM? Why?  

Heidi Bollard 18:23 

Relate. 

Natalie Dulaney 18:24 

You can't even try to start earlier because they're not even interested.  

Amber B 18:27 

He won't, he won't, he won't engage. It's like only after nine. And then he wakes up and he wants to tell me all the things. And I'm like, why can you tell me these at four or five awake? 

Natalie Dulaney 18:38 

Well, and so that's the thing, right? Amber, you have to decide. And we had this happen to us a lot. Like decide, like, is it more important to talk to him and bond with him in these final years? You know, that he's in your home for sure. Right. And not wake up early or exercise at your house in the morning instead. So you can stay up late talking to him. I mean, Corbyn got a job and she wouldn't get home to like nine or 10 o'clock at night. And I really wanted to make sure she was in the house and fed. Of course I can't help myself with my Asian grandma syndrome, but I did. I skipped a lot of CrossFit when she first got that job because I wanted to make sure she was home. I wanted to see how her day was. Like I, that was really, really, really important to me. And I will say that that sacrifice has paid dividends in our relationship. And I think that it's like anything else that we want or desire. It's like, we do have to sacrifice. You can have everything, but not all at once. Right. And so, yeah, there might be some nights where your daughter comes to you crying at the foot of her bed and it's 9:15. And you're like, I really wanted to go in and maybe I can just still go in, but it's going to be on less sleep, but I'll nap later. Or I'm just going to be like, we'll stay up and talk all night till midnight. And I'll just get up and go for a walk and said later or something. It's just, and not judging yourself for it. Right. Not being like, oh, a good mom would do both. It's like, really? Or you could be that mom. Who's like, you know, babe, I really got it. I really got to go to bed. So if there's anything amazing you want to tell me about, it's got to be in the next 15 minutes. 

Heidi Bollard 19:57 

Well, like everything else is ratio. Right. For sure. Yeah. It's, it's hard to, like you were saying, it's hard to do all of the things all the time, all the time. So picking and choosing and prioritizing is really the name of the game, especially when it comes to these random perimenopause symptoms that can be. That not everybody experiences, right? It's like, if I don't get enough sleep, I get migraines. So that's that there, there, but not everybody experiences that, right? Like some people have more brain frog or more incontinence or more hot flashes or whatever. And it would almost be, it would almost be easier if somebody just told you what you, what to expect. 

Amber B 20:40 

What to expect. Yeah.  

Heidi Bollard 20:41

Yeah. Even as, as dire as it might be or whatever, which I guess is a plug for talking to your moms. If your moms remember anything, what was like,  

Natalie Dulaney 20:50 

Oh, I don't know. But also just remember that they weren't even taught to care. So they don't have a lot of information either. It's like when you get those surveys for your kids and they're like, when did they walk? When did they crawl? When did they first eat their own food? And you're like, remembers all that. And then forget it. If you have to fill it out, like for a kid that was like, you know, like 18 and you, they were asking about when they were five. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like, I can't eat. Like which kid was it? I don't know. 

Heidi Bollard 21:13 

Dude. They used to ask me how many words like Maddie had. I'm like, how many, how many words am I supposed to know?  

Natalie Dulaney 21:20 

Although there's probably some women like listening now who's like, I know all of that, like. 

Amber B 21:26 

Okay. Can we talk about menopause symptoms? Cause I like, again, you guys are paving the way for me. Do you like the young end of the group?  

Natalie Dulaney 21:33  

Okay, sorry.  

Amber B 21:34 

And I know the last couple, I know the last couple of weeks  

Natalie Dulaney 21:37 

Like corralling us like ADHD woman was like corralling my cats. And I'd be like, Hey, over here, like shiny, shiny thing. Come back,  

Amber B 21:42 

Wave a shiny object. I want to talk about menopause. Cause I feel like I want to learn some, some stuff, right? It's like, I, I have done a lot of research on menopause. I know conceptually all the things that can happen. I've heard the symptoms, but I don't feel like I'm quite there yet. And I know the last couple of weeks have been even different than maybe the previous couple of weeks. So I just would love to hear your guys' experience and what it's been like for you. 

Heidi Bollard 22:06 

Yeah. Um, well it's, we're kind of in detective mode right now because, uh, when these things started happening, I really didn't know what to attribute it to. So we're still kind of in the process of unpacking it, but really sleep was sleep like migraines. I started having, um, during COVID I started getting hot flashes and I got this, um, which I'm just, if there's a woman suffering out there with these, I just have to plug this product. I'm not an affiliate in any way, shape, or form, but it's called The Bed Jet. And it's like a sheet that's aerated. So, um, it like blows temperature controlled air on you. It's the most amazing thing of all time.

Natalie Dulaney 22:49 

But you've been having a budget for like three years now. 

Heidi Bollard 22:51 

I mean, I got, yeah, I got it. I got it during COVID.  

Natalie Dulaney 22:53 

Yeah. So it has been a while that you have been getting curious about like, what the heck is happening?  

Amber B 22:58 

Like 42.

Heidi Bollard 22:58 

I just thought like, yeah, I just thought like, Oh, well my mom went through menopause at 40, um, 41 maybe. It's like, uh, she had my youngest brother and then she never had another period after that. Um. 

Amber B 23:10 

Oh wow! 

Heidi Bollard 23:11 

I know the younger you go through menopause, actually the worse it is for your health outcomes. So it's definitely not a good thing, but, um,  

Natalie Dulaney 23:19 

But the bummer is that most people just attribute menopause with hot flashes.  

Heidi Bollard 23:23 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 23:24 

And they think, Oh, until I get a hot flash, I'm not in menopause.  

Heidi Bollard 23:26 

Yeah. I was still getting my period regular so I was just like, Oh, I guess. And so it begins. Right. But never in a million, but I have the understanding that any kind of like hormone supplementation was very dangerous and could like potentially give you cancer, which turns out is, um,  

Amber B 23:42 

Bunk. 

Natalie Dulaney 23:43 

It's the same. It's almost the same as like the BMI chart.  

Heidi Bollard 23:45 

Yeah.  

Amber B 23:46 

It's a little junk science is what it is. 

Heidi Bollard 23:48 

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I, this is, you're meeting us as we're just like weeks into exploring this information. I've never saw any kind of treatment or help or supplements with like any of my pair of menopause symptoms outside of sleep.  

Natalie Dulaney 24:04 

And I think what was an interesting is, I mean, because we are in a space of women and as we coached women as you as well, like you, you will definitely hear people in menopause or going through menopause, um, waiting to see if this was going to be their very last period, you know, but it's been reduced down to like mostly hot flashes and your last trapped period for a year. Right. I think, which is such a bummer. Cause it's like, when you realize that as you start to deep dive, you're like, that was such a reductionist way to like, talk about the end of like women's like health, your ovulation. Right. And it's like seeing it defined as a deficit in women's hormones and an increase in a lot of health. What's the word for it?  

Heidi Bollard 23:44 

Symptoms. 

Natalie Dulaney 23:45 

Health symptoms, and like, or even diseases, like how they increase, increase in health diseases. You're like, Oh yeah, I care a little bit more. Right. Like I'm a little bit more curious as to like, what is really happening. And what I think what put us on this deep dive to begin with not even just the symptoms was just the fact that so many of us, well, sorry, all of us will experience menopause in our lives. 

Amber B 25:06 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 25:07 

And it's so untalked about. And now there are women OBGYNs and doctors who are realizing that they haven't been able to provide the care that a lot of women need. And I'm sure there's some people listening to those podcasts who have gone in and have talked to them about symptoms. And then a lot of people are like, Oh, you're not in menopause yet. You're not in menopause yet. You still have a period. You still have a regular cycle and things like that. And it's not because they're trying to be dismissive. What we're finding from a lot of these women researchers is that there's just not a lot of information on it. And that even OBGYNs, and I'd actually be curious to even ask TJ about this, is that they were saying that a lot of OBGYNs when they go in for their continuing education every year, there is not a lot of literature, if any, on menopause that they are updating themselves on. And when you look at pregnancy, there's over a million PubMed articles written on it. And then menopause is like, what, 6,000 or something.  

And the majority of our research is coming out of China because they have a lot of women researchers out there who are doing that work. But it's a very small population of women who are not only trying to lead the way and do the research, but also to get us out of this idea that we're just supposed to be okay with letting it all happen to us. And so what's been just wowing me is that if we are 30 years old and we only have 10% of our eggs and we weren't really biologically supposed to live this long, which is hilarious if you think about it. And in a societal way, of course, women have been having babies later and later, which is to your point about the evolution part of it. I think what's interesting is that really your most fertile and reproductive years are probably in your late teens and early twenties. In reality, from your best eggs and your best chances of getting pregnant and things like that. And so as we've been able to push that timeline with our health and our nutrition and exercise and knowledge, I think we still have to be considered about the fact that there are things that are going to be continually happening to us that we need to know about. And if you're kind of past, I know there's been a couple, so Dr. Mary Haver, Dr. Stacey Sims, is it Claire Gunter, I want to say is the other one. Let me double check and fact check her name, but they were saying like kind of basically like once you hit your thirties and thirty-fives, you are in peri. 

Even if you don't have any symptoms, it's just kind of on the eve, right? So I think that for those of us who are into preventative care or getting ahead of potential things in our life, which I don't want to call myself a pre-planner or a pre-logger by any means, but I definitely am curious about what are the ways for me and my daughters, especially because Corgan's like, we have a lot of menopause books in the house now, what's going on? But at the same time, the same way that we educate them about protein and carbs and fats and moving their body and exercise and body confidence, I feel like we owe it to our daughters to also give them an idea of like, hey, you're not just broken at this age. You're not just going to suffer. Like we're going to have hopefully answers even in the next 10 years. Hopefully even you, Amber, as you deep dive, I know you love a good deep dive. And as Heidi and I rabbit hole this, like we really want to like empower women to take care of their health. And we've been like, you know, I'm on a soapbox right now. Welcome to my Ted talk. Sorry. You can just wave a shiny thing and I'll stop. But my last thought is that it's really amazing because in your thirties or our thirties, we knew even earlier, Amber, cause you've been lifting for a long time from your mom's influence. We've already been ahead of the game with a lot of preventative measures for menopause,  

Amber B 28:48 

Sure. 

Natalie Dulaney 28:49 

Just strength training alone and having a passion for protein and sleep and stress reduction. And that all is so impactful, especially if 50% of us are going to get osteoporosis, I would love it to not be the three of us. Right. And that's a staggering statistic. I think that can be prevented. And even if you are pre-osteo, what is it? Pre-osteoporotic. Like you can, like I have a client who is starting to strength train and she's doing bone density tests. She has osteoporosis in her spine. 

And she had this whole time had been running, eating low fat, all the things that we've believed that we should do in order to have this body or this kind of look has actually been really detrimental to our health later in life. And so to be able to reverse those kinds of changes in that rhetoric, I think is really powerful. And so perimenopause is just no different than like someone described it as, as you know, in your body that like you're starting to go through puberty, right? Like you get more oily, get a little more greasy, get a little bit taller, get some acne, the same kind of signs are on the other side as we exit. 

And I thought that was really interesting because there is an exit, right? There is a point where we will stop ovulating in a way that like, you know, reduces estrogen progesterone for us. But I think noticing that there will be signs on the other side too, hopefully not pimples, although some of us still get them in our forties. But I think to be curious about the aging that is going to happen to you, instead of it being more than just like, I'm just waiting for a hot flash to start taking care of myself. 

Amber B 30:19 

So it was interesting. We put up, I put up a post this last week about menopause and asking people just to share like all the various menopause symptoms that they've experienced. And to your point, you know, yeah, hot flashes was one of them. But the myriad of other menopausal symptoms that people shared on that post was, was just so insightful, because I do think sometimes we reduce it down to like, okay, losing your period and hot flashes. And there are so many other symptoms that are intertwined and related. And if you're not aware of it, if we're not talking about it, people don't actually link some of those symptoms to something external that's happening to them, or I guess internal, but, but sometimes we can be like, oh, it's my fault, or I'm doing something wrong. And that's why I'm getting this brain fog, when in reality, when we can just understand, oh, no, it's because I'm entering this phase. And this is a normal, natural part of it. And there's things I can do. And obviously, there's some some things I can't do. But I think until we talk about the list of symptoms, women are always going to wonder, is this something that I'm doing wrong? Or is this just just a normal part of menopause?  

Heidi Bollard 31:21 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the symptoms that we know of are, which is one of the reasons, like Matt mentioned, that strength training is so great is that you start to lose your muscle mass and bone density as you as you age, right? And resistance training helps with both those things. So you have you have irregular periods, mood changes, including like more irritability, depression, emotional flatness, hot flashes, night sweats, vaginal dryness, headache, headaches, joint and muscle pain, thinning hair, insomnia, trouble concentrating a lot of times, women and there's some controversy about this, whether or not ADHD women have just like late diagnosed ADHD women have just been like folding it together all this time, and then it all goes to crap. And they're finally are diagnosed or whether menopause causes changes that are similar to ADHD symptoms. So and like, so libido issues, urinary urgency, cardiac effect, like I get heart palpitations all the time, probably like once or I don't know, maybe one to three times a week, whatever, where my heart will just like start racing. I don't know. I don't know where decreased energy and like a failure says failure to enjoy normal activities and relationships. So this is thanks for that list now. The so a couple things. I mean, one of the things I mean, I think we all here haven't heard that heard the biggest, the loudest complaints about menopause have been the fat gain around your abdomen and your back. Right. And that how many times we've heard it mentioned in the stuff we're researching that women are still doing the same, the same behavior, same nutrition, same workouts, and they're gaining this like abdominal fat, visceral fat kind of a thing.  

Natalie Dulaney 33:20 

Wasn't it like 20% increase as you headed to menopause without changing your diet and exercise in your amount, in your midsection, your visceral for visceral fat. I mean, wild. I mean, that's, and for, for those of us like myself that like have a thick middle already as, you know, as where we put our weight, it's really, really, really frustrating.  

Heidi Bollard 33:40 

Well, I, and I, and I thought that like, I thought that if you had these habits on lock, it was like sort of protection against that. I really, I, yeah, I had no, I had no idea that that just like comes, comes with the territory and that it's really going to be more, um, I mean, lifestyle changes and possible hormone replacement therapy are going to be your best bets. Um, um, and, and I don't mean all of this to say that, like, I only bring, I only bring up the weight gain as like, again, as with what we do with macro counting, that's like the loudest complaint we've heard, but it's not the only one. And I'll think a lot of times, like we said, with women, not understanding where this is stemming from, they keep thinking these symptoms are going to go away. If they just change this one thing or this, the other, this other thing, as opposed to like these symptoms are, they, they may be changeable with intervention, but without intervention, they're likely to kind of stay the same. And so you may have to change some of your habits and your approaches because those symptoms make sticking to you, to your, um, lifestyle habits more challenging.  

Natalie Dulaney 34:48 

Well, and I think what's so interesting for me is that even in the last like couple months, like, and even maybe before that, like even you and I, you and I have talked about this at the gym, like you just wake up more achy in places where you're super stiff. And you're like, I feel actually well-rested. Like, why do I feel so like stiff? Or like, why do I feel like I just worked out like crazy? And that workout wasn't even that sore in the same places, or maybe you've noticed you have like a more nagging pain. Like they were saying that frozen shoulder is actually one of like the biggest, like perimenopause, fasciitis are two big precursors to menopause, um, in peri as well. And I've had planner in the last year or two and Heidi's had frozen shoulder. 

And it's just interesting how like, and not even injuring yourself as in like, it's obvious when I sprained my ankle, but like right now I have this like weird nagging bicep, like between my like scapulas are like super weird. And like, I don't know if it's cause I just slept wrong. And then, and sometimes I think we think that too, we're like, oh, I just slept poorly or I slept on my arm weird, but not realizing that these could be part of it. And it's not to make you super like, you know, the hypochondriac about everything. But at the same time, it's like, it is interesting how we dismiss a lot of these things, but then what really gets us pissed off about it is our waking.  

Heidi Bollard 36:03 

Yeah. 

Amber B 36:03 

Yeah. It’s true though. 

Natalie Dulaney 36:04 

It's like, that's the one thing you're like, oh crap, something must be totally wrong. Right. Myself included. I'm fully guilty. Like I was telling Heidi this the other day, it's like, I'm, I'm pretty, pretty familiar with the way that I put on weight. I mean, I have plenty of pictures. Was that funny to me? And the other day I was like, I have a lot of before pictures and not a lot of after one. So I just have like a reel of me just gaining weight over the years. So funny anyways, but it's interesting because even now I am, I am curious about what is going on with me because my midsection, I'm always inflamed. Even if I've not eaten one thing in the morning, like I am super puffy and bloated pretty often and pretty regularly. And which is really, really unfortunate because it just makes me just be like, what the heck? I haven't put one thing in my mouth. So it's not like I had bell peppers, which will do it too. And you got to also keep an eye on your, your inflammatory foods, you guys, because that started your number and just make sure you're increasing your fiber, which is also something that I thought was super interesting for menopause as well. But, you know, having your mid midsection, even for women who are thin, they've noticed that as well, they'll all of a sudden get like a pouch or they'll be like, what's I've never had weight gain in this area before. And they'll start to get a little bit through their midsection and then back fat. So it's like two of those things. And then if you already put weight on there, it's very like, 

Amber B 37:23 

Distressing.  

Natalie Dulaney 37:24 

Probably annoying. 

Amber B 37:25 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 37:26 

So there's definitely a lot of frustrations. I think that come with it, especially if you feel like you are like, I've probably been tracking just to make sure like, you know, who among us isn't like, I didn't even really eat that much. Right. And then you're like, you track and you're like, oh crap. No, the extra handful of whatever, but it's doing an experiment on myself the last month, like with tracking and then, you know, exercising regularly again. And my steps, like I think last week, my steps were like averaged at 18 K and I'm puffier and heavier this week than like probably ever.  I'm like, what's up?  

Heidi Bollard 38:01 

Yeah, no. I mean, these are, these are like, I think approaching it as a science experiment is actually a great idea. 

Natalie Dulaney 38:07 

But also frustrating because it's like, you don't have a ton of answers, right? Like, you know what I mean? It's not like, oh, just cut to like a thousand calories and you should be fine because that's not even an answer for some cases either. You know what I mean?  

Heidi Bollard 38:18 

Totally. 

Natalie Dulaney 38:19 

Well, I hate that answer is always like, let's just try to lose weight then. Right. Instead of trying to like, really get curious about like what you need to do for yourself.  

Heidi Bollard 38:25 

I mean, a 1000%. I mean, I think this has been like the trajectory of the last 10 years. It was like first, it was first finding out about macro counting and being like, oh, this is how you can lose weight and make your, and make your, make your improve your body composition. Um, kind of climbing that hierarchy of like patriarchal body expectations. Right. And then realizing like that, that, that whatever lean and jacked ideal that we all strive, you know, that we're all taught to strive for that not that's not available to everybody.  

Amber B 38:59 

Yeah, sure. 

Heidi Bollard 39:00 

Um, and so then it was like, then I feel like we noticed this trajectory of like, well, let's talk about body acceptance and, um, and address fat phobia and these other things and focus more on getting strong. Um, and like that's something everybody can do. And that's something that's like, that's good for everyone. Right. And lends itself to like, when we went to that competition, the three of us, and we saw women, you, you know, women that would never get a standing ovation on a, on a bikini stage that are, that were like cleaning over 250. And it was like,  

Amber B 39:31 

Freaking strong. 

Heidi Bollard 39:32 

All these, right. 

Natalie Dulaney 39:33 

Like never forget that woman.  

Heidi Bollard 39:35 

I know. I know. Right. Yeah. But like the point being that like all bodies have value, all bodies deserve deserve deserve to be celebrated. And then here, here at this place where not only did that just feel right to make that switch, that is actually way better for women in the long run. Like the very worst thing you can do for your future self is focused on being skinny and as small as possible. Like the best thing you can do is keep yourself well-fed well-rested and getting as strong as possible because that's, you know, like you, you mentioned what I was talking about, about evolving women evolving or whatever, because you had mentioned that like, there's some signs to suggest that we were never expected to live past our past menopause. Right. But I saw another video by Dr. Haver, where a man was, was giving a lecture talking about how actually we did evolve to have grandmothers that lived past this this, these dangerous childbearing years so that they could pass on the wisdom to the younger generations. And I think that's definitely what the three of us have been trying to do ever since we started is like, Hey, these are some things we figured out is this helpful. And, and I think we're just going to keep doing that as, as the three of us age and and, and learn from our experiences.  

Natalie Dulaney 41:02 

And I don't think that we could care about women's health more than ever now, especially with the decline of accessibility, just in general, like we have to put women's care at the forefront. And especially since it's like, it's not even just like some people will never ever gain weight in their life or some people will never have osteoporosis. Like everybody is going to go through menopause. Like if you live that long, God willing, you can go through it. So to dismiss it or just wait until it happens to you, instead of doing the things to create positive change and get yourself into a place that you can be okay with your body changing and understanding what it's doing, as well as like the mental fortitude to be like, yeah, I've gained like this much weight and I feel really, really like frustrated with it. But I also understand that there are things happening in my body and I'm not totally helpless as far as like the changes I can make and not always reducing it down to like, how much do I like the goal is always just trying to get back to as thin as possible. Um, and it's been incredible just like studying it. I, I have such a, so sad that we don't, we're not doctors, but at the same time,  

Amber B 42:07 

No, you're not, you're not, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. I'm telling you.

Natalie Dulaney 42:09 

I know, even just, you know, I love these women who are bold enough to be like, if you have had an eating disorder, if you've been anorexic when you were younger, please start strength training. Like your bone density already from an early age is impacted. And so,  

Heidi Bollard 42:23 

Even if we don't all go all the way to having an eating disorder, I would say most women have some form of disorder eating. It's something we all need to take seriously and all need to, all need to work on feeding ourselves well  

Natalie Dulaney 42:37 

And caring about how you feel. And like you guys, we all need to eat. We all need to eat. Like there's no way you can't live without it. Right. And so I think being curious about where you're at and what's on the E for you is great. I, there was a statistic that made me super sad. Was it one in five or one in four, like women in their forties are like quitting their jobs.  

Heidi Bollard 42:53 

I think it was one in four.  

Natalie Dulaney 42:54 

One in four because of like brain fog and like all these symptoms that are making them feel like they can't be productive when in some ways we should be in like the best years of our life. Like we're brilliant. We've had life experience. We have the time to pursue careers. And it's just interesting how, like, if you, I mean, I'm sure you guys, you've met women who are like, Oh, it's okay. After my forties, I just, you know, what is like, put out to pasture or whatever. I passed my prime. It's like, Oh no, sister, if we're going to live another 40, it's, it should only get better. 

Amber B 43:27 

Yeah. It's so good. 

Natalie Dulaney 43:28 

I don't know what your thoughts hearing all this, because we really didn't like care about menopause.  

Amber B 43:32 

Yeah. I mean, I have definitely noticed in the last couple of years, an uptick in the women who are coming to me for coaching, that menopause is like top of the list of things that are struggling with that is hard. You know, and that has been a shift that I've seen. I don't know if it's because I'm getting older and my audience is maybe it's just that my audience is getting older, but it definitely is a shift from five, seven years ago, the people who are coming to me for coaching. So I've definitely seen an uptick in it. So because of that, in response to that, I have done some deep dives in the menopause, but I think the challenging thing, and I mean, I think you guys just kind of reiterate it again, is like, there's no, it's not like, and it's not a disease, so it makes sense, but it's not like any other disease process where you can say, this is like the normal disease process. And this is what you can expect. And these are the very common symptoms. And like almost everybody has these and here's how we solve them. Menopause is so much more an enigma of like, okay, so everybody's going to lose their hormones, but it's going to impact you in completely different ways. Right. 

Heidi Bollard 44:30 

Right. Every part of your body is going to be affected by the lack of estrogen and progesterone in unique ways for you.  

Amber B 44:38 

But we don't know what it's going to look like. It's going to happen, but we have no idea how you're going to be impacted by it. That's the hardest part.  

Natalie Dulaney 44:46 

But it's also like, what a lesson to learn this whole time about like aesthetics, right? Like, oh, sorry. Just because you want a six pack doesn't mean you can get one. Just because you want visible, like, you know, biceps doesn't mean you can get them. And it's like, because every woman is so uniquely different. Why would your menopause symptoms be like, you know, like no one's going to be cookie cutter or anything. 

Heidi Bollard 45:04 

Totally.  

Amber B 45:05 

I feel like, um, you know, getting like a little woo, a little woo here, but I feel like a lot of the lessons that I'm currently learning in my life is about letting go. And it is about, I so want to control everything. It's just like, right. Like there's like a hyper control. And part of my lessons that I've been really trying to lean into is this letting go and just allowing and like releasing that control and realizing I have way less control over things than I actually think that I do. And to me, this, I mean, menopause is like what better experience in life to learn, to let go and allow and not hyper control because that's, that's really the experience. So maybe that's what I, that's what I'm learning right now. And maybe that will serve me very well as I transitioned into those menopausal years, uh, just to let go and not control everything. 

Heidi Bollard 45:51 

Sooner or later, your body will take you to what is real. You, you, you know, we'll all get sick. We'll all get injured. We'll we'll all age. It's yeah. Um, yeah, you don't sometimes, and like Nat was saying earlier for, sometimes you don't know until you pushed it too far. You may not realize that how conditional your self-acceptance is until some of these symptoms clear their head.  

Amber B 46:16 

Yep. Yeah. It's really easy to preach self-love and acceptance when you still fit the mold of what is societally acceptable.  

Natalie Dulaney 46:25 

Oh my gosh! Amen. 

Heidi Bollard 46:25 

Well said.  

Amber B 46:26 

Yeah. 

Natalie Dulaney 46:27 

And I just think it's not to me, I hope that anyone listening isn't thinking like, gosh, I'm super dreading like aging. Cause I think that there's already that rhetoric in place. I also think that like now, like five years ago or 10 years ago, when you started getting curious about how to take care of yourself and how to care about how you feel, this is the same kind of evolution, but hopefully with some like more information and, and being wiser and also with more care and concern for yourself, because it's like, it is super empowering to think that we could be the first generation of women to really, really care about aging wonderfully and really strong and have an impact on things. I mean, this is a cool opportunity for us instead of it being like, we grew up in a generation of fat-free everything, cardio, everything don't lift a weight because you don't want to get bulky. Like those women have osteoporosis and that's, well, I just want to, you know, we talked a lot about, you know, strong gives you the life that you thought skinny would. And it's more than even just that it's not even an aesthetic look. It's like a quality of life. It's the vitality that comes with the potential to have many more years with the people you love and to be able to continue to create right. As we get older. 

Amber B 47:45 

What I think you're saying there is that the skill that you learned, your younger version of you learned that is applicable now is the skill of taking care of yourself. Not necessarily the skill of like eating this much protein or like just the nitty gritty that we get into in order to create an aesthetic. That's not that overarching skill. That's going to be helpful for the rest of your life. The skill is learning to take care of yourself. And that looked different five years ago, what taking care of yourself look like, but that skill is still applicable. It just the, the mechanisms of it look a little different now that you're older. Same skill.  

Heidi Bollard 48:18 

Yeah. Exactly.  

Amber B 48:19 

Yeah. So good.  

Natalie Dulaney 48:20 

And hopefully you allow it to translate, right. Instead of using it as a way to like you know, 

Amber B 48:23 

Yes. Control?  

Natalie Dulaney 48:24 

Control, yes. 

Amber B 48:25 

I feel attacked. 

Natalie Dulaney 48:28 

I get that weight will never go away. And the people's concern and like desire for weight loss, it's still going to be ever prevalent, but there's also got to be more for that as you age.  

Amber B 48:39 

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So good. I mean, guys, let's do it again. Let's make it, let's make it nine times. Let's make it 10 times. Always, always love chatting.  

Natalie Dulaney 48:51 

Well, let's try with a month and a half because we're in like a big hole right now.  

Amber B 48:54 

Okay. Climb out of the hole and we can chat again, but isn't that, isn't that like the best way? I mean, unfortunately I wish it wasn't the case, but isn't that the best way to learn? It's like you go through something, you learn the lessons, you figure it out. And then you, cause you guys are such teachers at heart. Like me, it's like, then you just want to teach everybody else and help share. And you're not at that point right now where you're ready to teach everybody else because you're still in it and you're still going through it. But I don't know. I always take comfort in knowing that, okay, I'm going to figure this thing out. And then I'm going to help women not have to go through the experience that I went through. It gives a little purpose.  

Heidi Bollard 48:28 

I love it. Yes. We are natural teachers. Also info dumpers. 

Amber B 49:36 

That's awesome. All right Heidi and Nat. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast. You guys are fantastic.  

Heidi Bollard 49:41 

Thank you. 

Natalie Dulaney 49:41 

Thanks for having us. 

Amber B 49:42 

It's always fun when Heidi and Natalie and I get to jump on an interview. Cause it's, we have these conversations all the time at the gym or when we're hanging out, cause they're like my real life friends. And it's just fun to just hit record. So you guys get to kind of listen in and what it's like for us to hang out in the gym and just chat about some of the things that we're experiencing. A lot of the things that we're thinking about, how we're thinking about them. And it's just been fun to evolve with them over, you know, the last eight to nine years. It's crazy that it's been that long. So I hope this episode was helpful. I hope maybe those of you who are in perimenopause or experiencing symptoms that made you feel a little less alone. And those of you who are like me kind of looking in on what is to come made you feel a little bit more prepared for that process. That wraps up this episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm Amber. Now go out and be strong because remember my friend, you can do anything.   

Outro

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