330: You’re Probably Thinking About Habits Wrong…Let’s Fix That with Monica Packer

Introduction 

You're listening to Biceps After Babies Radio Episode 330.

Hello and welcome to Biceps After Babies Radio. A podcast for ladies who know that fitness is about so much more than pounds lost or PR's. It's about feeling confident in your skin and empowered in your life. I'm your host Amber Brueseke, a registered nurse, personal trainer, wife and mom of four. Each week my guests and I will excite and motivate you to take action in your own personal fitness as we talk about nutrition, exercise, mindset, personal development and executing life with conscious intention. If your goal is to look, feel and be strong and experience transformation from the inside out, you my friend are in the right place. Thank you for tuning in. Now, let's jump into today's episode.

Hey, hey, hey! Welcome back to another episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm your host, Amber Brueseke. And today we are going to dive deep into the world of habits, but not in the way that maybe you have thought about habits in the past, my guest Monica Packer, is an expert in habits, and she's kind of taking what maybe you think that you know about habits and really turning on on its head. I love how she frames habits. I love her ideas of how to change habits how to get rid of some bad habits, how to add new, better habits. And I really love what she has to do about has to say about customizing the habits to really build a supportive life for you and she has some really good and some has some really good, tangible takeaways of things that we're not just going to talk ethereally about habits and how great they are. She actually gives you some tangible takeaways that you can implement today to really start to make sure that your habits are being supportive and that they are helping you to create the life that you want to create. So if you're someone who would like to either get rid of some of your bad habits or create some new, better habits, this episode is absolutely for you. Take a listen.  

Amber B 01:59 

I'm so excited to welcome back to the podcast, Monica Packer. We were just laughing because she was back on episode #5 and now we are here 330 something episodes in and it's, it's fun to have you back. I'm glad you're back to the podcast.  

Monica Packer 02:15 

Well, it's a joy. It's a joy to return, but also joy to be one of your first interviews. It’s really cool. 

Amber B 02:18 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so if you don't know you, you listening may not know the history, but actually back in the day probably like 2017. When did you start your podcast?  

Monica Packer 02:30 

2016.But at the end of the 2016. Yeah. 

Amber B 02:33 

So and and Monica asked me to be on her podcast back when she started it, and that was the first podcast ever interview I'd ever done. I think both of us were a little nervous. We didn't really know what we were doing. And so when I started my podcast, it was like, well, of course, Monica is going to be one of the first people that I bring on because I feel comfortable with her. And I know that she'll, she'll do a great job. So, she was on episode 5, and now we get a kind of come full circle and many, many years later, do it again. 

Monica Packer 02:56 

Yeah. And we've both evolved so much too, which is really fun to when you re interview someone that you just get to see the ways they've evolved and changed and I'm I know I have, for sure. 

Amber B 03:08 

Yeah, absolutely. And today's topic is one that I'm very excited to dive into with you because you are an expert on this and have really dove into figuring out habits and how to really make them a better part of our lives, make them work for us and this is something that is such an important topic that my, my audience is just going to eat up. So can you start with just kind of sharing a little bit about maybe your journey with habits, right? We talk about some of the pivots that we've done. And over the years, some of the things that we've explored and gotten better at, and this is, you know, what led you into specializing and getting really to dive into habits and helping people to be able to set better habits. 

Monica Packer 03:46 

I'll start by saying it was not the plan, but I did not think I was a habit person at all. I didn't particularly have a super big interest in habit formation and and all why all goes back to my service with perfectionism and I believe that's what we talked about in episode 5. So, you know, working on adopting this mindset of progress, not perfection, which is why my work is all About Progress. That's what it's called, and that's what our work is doing. It changed so much in my life, but primarily how I started was with identity, you know, trying to figure out who I was again, outside of this all or nothing pendulum swing that also really connects to identity of like, who am I if I'm not my outcomes bad or good or anything in between. And as part of that, I worked on, you know, hobbies or making time for myself. And I got to this point where I had a big plateau with my personal development and it was because I knew who I was, but my life wasn't matching that identity those values anymore. Like I wanted to have time for myself, but that time was hard to create without having a habit that made that possible. I knew what I wanted to feel like, but I wasn't feeling like that when I wasn't sleeping at all or when I wasn't prioritizing some self-care habits that were just about me. So I really fell into it by accident and just that plateau was something I hit, and I realized I could take what I had been experimenting with about progress, not perfection with all other personal development categories and apply it to habit formation and how can I, how can I anchor into having good habits without that all or nothing pendulum swing being the guy like how can I how can I have good supportive habits but in practical ways, is that even possible? Because it is such a black and white world. So that's been several years in the making of me. And working out myself and and and and making huge difference strides in that, in that part of my life and then also helping my clients who they, they were there to work on their identity too, but they got to the same plateau. Like they needed help with their habits, so it matched their lives and it turned into me creating my own habit formation method that's designed for busy women, especially busy moms, to help them form habits at stake. So, if everyone is listening to this and they see the word habits and they want to run to the hills, that was me.  

Amber B 06:12 

Yeah.  

Monica Packer 06:12 

And it's a large part of my audience and the biggest reason why I know we can talk about this and the whole number of things is you've been taught habits wrong. You've been taught habits wrong. You've also been told you're not a habit person if you don't meet these prescription-bound metrics of what it looks like to be a good person, who has good habits. So, there's a lot to redefine that's tangled there, and that's my work. That's what I get to do with women is help them untangle that and also help them form habits that stick. 

Amber B 06:42 

That's good. OK, we're going to say the word habit a ton during this episode, so let's start with, like, a definition. When you, when you say the word habits and when we talk about habits, what are you, what do you mean with that? 

Monica Packer 06:54 

This is such a funny thing, because I think if we asked someone to define habits, they actually don't really have a definition, they have a feeling and it's almost like this heaviness. It's this burden. It's this thing they're carrying around because for so long, habits have been about metrics. It's about about prescriptions. Like I've said too, you know, of having certain things are supposed to meet in order to qualify as a person who meditates or who exercises or who meal preps like there's a standard and you hit it, and in order to meet that standard, you carry this habit. The standard around with you all the time, and you have to strive, strive, strive to hit it exactly and like exactly the same time of day from day after day after day. Habits seem to be redefined. We have to redefine the way we look at habits. This is what I have come to and has changed so many women's lives. Just this one shift. And as that habits are the small and simple ways we support ourselves. So, one nutshell is habits are supportive. That's it. Their only purpose is to help us feel more like ourselves from you know us feeding ourselves and exercising and sleeping and all those basics things that just help us, you know, ride or die based off of or, you know, maybe not ride or die is the right word, but it changes the way that we feel. Like you got a bad night's sleep, you don't feel like yourself the next day, if you're going months on not moving your body,  you don't feel like yourself very much so that's their purpose. They're there to support yourself who you really are. That's it. They're not balls and chains. 

Amber B 08:31 

It's so good and I was thinking as as you were talking earlier, as we often talk about habits in terms of like good habits and bad habits, and I never even really stopped to think about how maybe detrimental that is in this conversation about habits if we categorize good habits and we categorize bad habits. And then if we tend towards the bad habits, then we’re like, no wonder we yeah, we hate habits. Like it's like, yeah, I always tend towards the bad ones and I can't figure out how to get rid of the bad ones. So what thoughts do you have on this idea of, like, good habits versus bad? Because I didn't hear that in any of your definition, right. It's like small and simple ways we support ourselves. It doesn't really fit with my definition of good habits and bad habits are how we often talk about them. 

Monica Packer 09:12 

So another saying that they can adopt, we've already talked about habits are supportive, habits are subjective. What's a good habit for me, 

Amber B 09:21 

Yeah, it's good.  

Monica Packer 09:22 

Could be a bad habit for someone else and vice versa. One of my best good habits that I have right now is watching a YouTube video while I eat lunch. That's probably a bad habit for other people. Yeah, OK. Or eating a treat at night. That's a good habit for me. I love that. That's the thing I look forward to. It makes me feel supported. It gives me time to myself. It gives me something to look forward to, I love my night treat, but someone else that may be a bad habit. So habits are subjective. It's less about what the habit is, and it's more about why we have that habit and the effect the habit is having on us. I actually have a whole thing, whole bonus module on my course on this about bad habits in particular, and one of the things we tend to focus on a lot is numbing behavior. Those are things like scrolling a phone or emotionally eating. And by the way, that word is, that phrase is always triggering to me because I struggled with eating disorders that were related to binge eating. So as you have that same thing just no, I I know what that feels like, but how that can still be a numbing behavior that we navigate to, but also organizing can be a numbing behavior or going through your emails or you know, cleaning out the kitchen pantry like, there's so many ways to numb. But the reason why those numbing behaviors are “bad habits” is not because the behavior itself is bad, innately bad. They don't have, unless your bad habit is killing someone, you know which shouldn't be anyone here, or like something like very immoral, you know. Very, very immoral against your values. That's like not, 99.99% of people here. The the behavior itself is not what's bad, it's the lack of intention. And it's that effects of it are bad.  

Amber B 11:12 

Yeah.  

Monica Packer 11:12 

So when your phone can be a good habit, if you're doing it intentionally. And you know when and how and why you're doing it. 

Amber B 11:18 

So, as people are listening to this, I have to imagine that they're kind of scrolling mentally through some of their habits. And now they're, they're trying to make a determination on, well, why am I doing this? And and sometimes that self-awareness can be challenging, right? It's much more black and white. Say, scrolling on your phone after 9:00 PM, it's a bad habit and you should stop. And, you know, meditating every day is a good habit. And you should start that, like, that's more black and white and easy for people to comprehend. But this nuance that you're creating your own habits, which I love is, is less about what the habit is and more about why you're doing that. So how does somebody get self reflective or self aware so that they can reflect and say why am I doing this? Is this a habit that is supportive or is it a habit that I need to work on shifting for myself? 

Monica Packer 12:01 

This is a good question to be asking and like you said, awareness I think is the key. Here's, here's though where I would tell people to start, don't be aware of all the things, you don't have to go down this meta wormhole of like questioning your entire life and what is the purpose of life. Because you're now trying to decide this is a good habit or a bad habit. Just start with one you know. Think about one thing that you tend to navigate too often and and then just kind of build some awareness like am I, is this a numbing behavior? Am I trying to numb an emotion that I don't want to feel right now? Am I trying to avoid some responsibilities because of how they feel in my body because they add stress, so I'm just scrolling my phone because I'm trying to avoid the stress I feel with finishing cleaning up the kitchen for the night. Start with just that curiosity of one area in your life. Don't do all the areas and actually this is another point I would make too is a lot of women come to me wanting to work on a bad habit. We do that, but not to start. To start, we actually work on implementing a good habit, one that actually oftentimes counteracts the bad habit to begin with. If you show up to the end of your night because you have zero energy and you're scrolling your phone because you have zero energy to like, actually do a habit that feels more like self there to you or even intentionally scrolling. Then we work on creating a habit that helps you have more of that energy that gives you more of that time to yourself, so you are less inclined to go down that numbing behavior loop at night. 

Amber B 13:41 

So it's it's a little bit about like building, building a life that you don't need to escape from. 

Monica Packer 13:47 

Oh my goodness.  

Amber B 13:48 

Right? Like. 

Monica Packer 13:49 

Literally that's. Yes, I do. I do a whole thing on revenge bedtime procrastination. And that's the thing we literally say. Like the goal of habit formation is building a life that you do not need to escape from. 

Amber B 14:00 

Yeah. Say that again. Revenge. 

Monica Packer 14:03 

Revenge Bedtime Procrastination. That's it's a mistranslated Chinese phrase. But yeah, but all all the rage during the pandemic, especially when people realize that they were having revenge on themselves by procrastinating bedtime, like revenge on their daytime responsibilities. Like screw you all the things that you make me do all day, I am going to delay bedtime all night, but I finally have time for myself. 

Amber B 14:30 

Yeah. And then that just comes back to bite you in the butt.  

Monica Packer 14:32 

Yes, yes.  

Amber B 14:33 

Yeah. So interesting. Our brains are so fascinating. I just find our brains, like, super fascinating. One of the terms that you said previously that I want to kind of dive into this idea of a ball and chain. You said that term, can you kind of define what you mean by that and like how does that relate to habits? 

Monica Packer 14:50 

I think this is why I didn't believe I was a habit person for a long time, because as someone who was the stereotypical overarching perfectionist. And then crashed and burned into becoming an underachieving perfectionist, by the way the routes to those are the same.  

Amber B 15:06 

Yeah, yeah. 

Monica Packer 15:07 

You're putting your identity on your outcomes. I know. I knew the metrics I needed to hit right for it to qualify as having a habit in quotes, like to exercise. Well, that means you exercise this many days of the week for this amount of time and doing these amount, these types of exercises and and having like those metrics, they become a ball on chain when you're just finding if you are dragging around the habits like you are serving the habit. Yeah. Then that's wrong. The habits are there to serve you. That's the shift. So if the ball and chain is like that feeling when you're thinking about habits, if that's the feeling you have, then not the way you're viewing the habit or doing that habit is the ball and chain. And here's here's one thing, though, that matters. You know, we talk so much, I'll let you hear this all the time. Do away with the sheds, no more sheds. 

Amber B 15:58 

Right. Yeah. Stop shooting all over yourself. Yeah. 

Monica Packer 16:00 

Yes, yes, yes, I love that sentiment, but it doesn't match reality. Guess what? I hate doing laundry. It's a should.  

Amber B 16:08 

Yeah, it's not a want.  

Monica Packer 16:09 

It's not a want.  

Amber B 16:10 

Not fun.  

Monica Packer 16:11 

But I do it. And I and I need to do it so should, some shoulds, not all of them can be chosen, so that ball and chain have it that you may have, you can choose it and when you choose, you can do it in a way that reflects you instead of it being about a metric you're dragging around, so I may choose and I don't love exercising. I'm giving an example here. Maybe I say I hate exercising because I have all these metrics I'm dragging around. Do I want to exercise? Will it support me? Will it give me time to myself? Will it give me more energy, will help my health? Like. OK, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I want to choose the should of exercising, but I'm choosing it. So that means I get to choose to do it in a way that matches me, what I like, how I like to exercise, how I like to move my body and in ways that match my reality, my season. So maybe I know I don't have to exercise by doing high fitness even though I love high fitness six days a week. I know that exercise for me is going for a 20-minute walk. Oh, that feels good. That's a that's a should I chose. 

Amber B 17:19 

Yeah.  

Monica Packer 17:20 

So that's a difference.  

Amber B 17:21 

So if somebody is listening and they are feeling that heaviness that you're talking about, they feel like, ohh, I'm. I'm resonating with this. I feel like I understand what Monica is saying about this ball and chain and these metrics that are like holding me hostage cause I definitely feel that way. If someone feels this way, what are some of the steps that they can take to start to relieve that? I heard you say, you know, asking yourself how, like, how could this look different for me or am I holding myself to some outside expectation of like what this is supposed to look like? And can I make it look different? Are there any other ideas that we can have of ways that people could implement right now of to make that ball and chain habit that they have feel a little less oppressive?  

Monica Packer 18:00 

Yes. OK, this is a funny thing that people don't expect. Like, so let's say you're working on a habit that typically happens in the morning for you or the night or the afternoon. So, let's actually start with the time of day that you want a habit or you want to feel more supported. So it's less about journaling, but it's more of like I'm going to insert journaling at night because that's the time I need a lot of support so you can start with the time of day where you are lacking, feeling like yourself the most, you can start there and then, even before you decide the habit, I want you to think about how you want to feel during that time of day. You start with feelings like who knew habits were also about feelings. So, you think about, well, how do I want to feel? Let's do it the nighttime thing again. OK, so I actually did this with the client the other day. How do you want to feel at night and some of the responses that she gave were I want to feel like that I am relaxed. I want to feel like I'm off the clock, that my responsibilities are over. I want to feel relaxed, so you kind of get clear on what the feelings are. And then from there you think about what particular habits would help you feel those feelings. And this is where it gets habits are subjective for some people like feeling relaxed would be where this client was. She wants to read that night. And that was a revelation to her. Oh, that's a good habit. Yeah, like actually having downtime to yourself and reading instead of being productive, because that's what was making you delayed bedtime for hours and hours and hours. Yeah, that's a good habit, it’s sitting down and reading, but for someone else it might be I have to have a clean kitchen or I can't relax. So that's my good habit. I'm going to be working on is getting a clean kitchen so I can relax. So, start with the time of day feeling and then go from there. Note it down. 

Amber B 19:56 

Which is, which is brilliant like I think it's so brilliant to start with the feeling, because that's what we're we're in our actions we're always trying to create feelings, right? That that's what we're really is really driving us. So if we can start with the end in mind like you can, like Silvie Calvin said, which is what is the feeling you want to create, then we can reverse engineer to be able to get to that point. I I wonder how societal pressure plays into this. I mean especially speaking with the clients that you're talking with and this idea of like having to be productive or my productivity is is tied to my worth. 

Monica Packer 20:25 

Yeah. 

Amber B 20:25 

Do you see that as uniquely and maybe not uniquely, because I'm sure guys deal with it as well, but like. But there are some certain societal pressures placed on women that that result in a lot of us feeling that way, like we always have to be productive, or we always have to be caring for somebody else, or we always have to put other people's needs above our own. That leads women to this ball and chain idea of habits, feeling oppressive rather than and giving them freedom. 

Monica Packer 20:51 

Absolutely. And this all goes back to a piece of the puzzle that is missing in all have the permission methods I have seen out there and it's the fact that women's lives are different than men's lives.  

Amber B 21:02 

Yes. 

Monica Packer  21:03 

And this actually isn't about politics. It's not about religion. It's not about culture or anything like that. This is true across the board for the entire world, that women's lives are different than men's lives and all comes down to the disparity of Labor within a home. And this has been true for me with my clients, regardless of if they have children in the home or not. Regardless, women's lives are different. So for the women who are feeling like feeling in that place of I always have to be productive. That's actually true. That's the position you've been put in that you were carrying around all these pieces of the giant puzzle that it takes to be in a household. Even if you're not a stay at home Mom, you have those all in your head right now. 

Amber B 21:46 

That, like mental load, right? That's what you talk about. Mental load, yeah. 

Monica Packer 21:48 

The mental load so. So another way to phrase that is the invisible labor that we carry. And there's so much research on this, like decades worth. I love Eve Rotsky's fair play. I also love Caroline Criado Perez and her book Invisible Women, on the on that topic alone, but this is to not, like, disparage men. Like there's good men I have. I'm married to one of them, and people who you know who do try to help with that disparity and that load. But this is just to validate the women who are thinking. I can't just you know, clock out. I or there's always. There's always more to do. There's always more to carry. And the habits can just become another thing. So this is to say we know that. So this is why you need habits that are just about you. Because you are caring so much and there's so much that needs to change societally for that, you know, in terms of better valuing the work that women do and better supporting them and sharing in the labor. But until that day comes, and even when that day comes, we have to work on supporting ourselves and and having that internal system of self-care and support so that we can show up for all the other things and actually you know what, Amber, that was the biggest reason why I started this shift in general is it wasn't because I decided I had to have some good habits. It's because I was yelling at my kids, because I was so, I'm so burned out. I've just like the parenting and the invisible labor that was so, I was so entrenched in which I'm still am. I'm I'm modified now, and I started this when I was a mom of three and I don't yell at my kids. Like, almost every now. And it's not because my life looks different very much on the outside. It’s because I feel different, I am more of myself because I am supporting myself better, too. 

Amber B 23:41 

Yeah. Well, and going back to what you said that at the beginning of the episode, you talked about your identity shifting and how maybe, like some of the actions or the habits hadn't quite lined up right. And and yes, we feel whole and complete when our actions line up with the identity that we hold. There feels like a incongruence when we held an identity and that's not supported by the actions. And So what I'm hearing you say is when we can align our habits, when we can align the things that we do with who we want to be and who we, you know our self-concept, then we feel much more whole and an alignment to be able to move forward with a a better life, right? 

Monica Packer 24:20 

Yes. 

Amber B 21:21 

So in all of the areas.  

Monica Packer 21:22 

Exactly. 

Amber B 21:23 

It's so fascinating. Talk to me about starting a new habit. So one day, somebody's listening to this and they have kind of done some self-reflection. They figured out how they want to feel. They've identified, you know, just take your client, for example. She identifies that she wants to read at night, very rarely, and maybe, maybe you have a different experience. Very rarely do I have clients who say I would like to start this new habit and then it's like boom, they start it and it's easy and it's like, that's it. We fully solved it, right. It's like there's usually, there’s usually. 

Monica Packer 24:53 

That's how we're taught. Like, isn't that funny? Isn't that like all the habit challenges out in the world? It's like everyone, 30 days of working out. Whoo hoo! And we all just work out. 

Amber B 25:04 

When we just do it right? 

Monica Packer 25:05 

30 days. Great. We just do it. That is way too reliant on low power. And another way to raise willpower is energy.  

Amber B 25:13 

Yes. 

Monica Packer 25:14 

That's it. Yeah. It just all comes down to energy. So I'm going to head back to the energy thing in just a sec. 

Amber B 25:20 

And most of us have not very much energy, especially by the end of the day, right? We're talking about the invisible labor. We talk about the mental load. It's it's a. It's no wonder that you feel like you don't have energy to be able to do the thing that you said earlier in the day that you're going to do so.  

Monica Packer 25:30 

Exactly. 

Amber B 25:31 

So, how do we, how do we, how do we implement it? How do we get past some of those barriers that are going to come up and we say I want to read at night. But then we have the struggles of actually implementing it, making it happen. How do we move past that so we can get the habit to stick? 

Monica Packer 25:46 

This is where I'm like, ahh I'm so excited to dig into this because it's gonna change so much. So not only have we redefined what habits are, which is actually where you have to start with everybody. We also have to redefine the habit formation process because so many people who are listening think that they're bad at habits when they're not like that. They don't feel like habits. The habit formation methods they've been following have failed them for years, and mostly just because of things we just said decide to have it, start it, do it for 30 days, boom! you got it.   

Amber B 26:13 

Fixed it. 

Monica Packer 26:14 

Not relevant to real life because sometimes we do that for 30 days, but what they don't see is our house is a disaster or we are yelling at our kids.  

Amber B 26:22 

Sure. 

Monica Packer 26:23 

We're like we're paying a price for the energy we're spending and doing it that way. So let's break this down for people. Once you have selected the habit that you want, you've walked through what I just did the time of day, the feeling, and now the habit that you want to work with. You do still need to start with the end in mind. Like Steven, have you said you have to have a vision in mind of what you want this habit to look like so you cast the vision. So let's take that woman who wanted to read. And so she was going to read her ideal version of this, is she would love to be able to read for 30 minutes to an hour each night. Hey, after dinner was over, that was our vision. You do not start there, you do not start with the ideal. The reason why is even if that seems like a small and simple habit like reading for 30 minutes like whoa, sounds like a vacation. If you don't do that currently, that is going to require too much energy for you to just start with it. So instead of starting with the ideal, we begin with what I call as the baseline. And the baseline is the smallest and simplest version of your ideal habit that you can do on your worst of day. Now, I'm not thinking about the literal worst day of your life. Everybody gets a pass on a literal worst day kind of day like. I don't know. I'm thinking about like I, I had a kid who literally almost died a month ago. Like I wasn't going to worry about meal planning that night because it was Monday or whatever, you know, like, you get a pass. But on the types of days where you are the lowest in energy. OK, so maybe a kid sick or maybe you're on your period. Or maybe you're struggling with the mental health day. Or maybe you just have so many things that have to do go do that day or you're you're putting out proverbial fires all the time. OK, like something has to be done fairly quickly. So you have a vision and then you create your baseline. People don't like to start with the baseline because they want the ideal.  

Amber B 28:22 

Right. 

Monica Packer 28:23 

Here's the thing, working with starting on the baseline is what gives you the, the foundation you need to build towards the ideal, and that also gives you the consistency you need to have that habit because habits still live and die by consistency, but consistency is not rigidity. Consistency is actually based on flexibility. They're not competing ideals, they're complementary. If you want to be consistent as a busy woman, then your habits need to be designed to be flexible, and we do that by having a baseline version that we can do on our worst of day. So for this woman, she believes she can do 10 minutes on the days she has the worst amount of energy. We start there, but here's the coolest thing I talked about how you build towards your baseline, your ideals because of the baselines. Your highs get higher, you move towards ideals, your lows get higher too. Your baselines will build as well, so your worst of day eventually will be the 30 minutes, which was your ideal to begin with. This is true for exercise, journaling, day planning, meal planning, any kind of habit that you know will support you in your life. You have to have those baselines, so that's, that's where we started. It's one other piece that may help them. But. But that's it. Cast a vision. Start with your baseline. 

Amber B 29:41 

That's so good. Yeah. And it's super actionable, too. I think we get we do get like stars in our eyes of overachieving what we think we can accomplish. You know, there's that saying, like, we always overestimate what we can accomplish in a day and underestimate, underestimate what we accomplish in a month or a year or whatever.  

Monica Packer 29:58 

Exactly.  

Amber B 29:59 

And I think it's that idea of like, just starting with something and then building on that foundation instead of expecting perfection from yourself, you know. 

Monica Packer 30:06 

Because you're going to pay a cost for that. I mean you could do that. You could do the ideal, but you're going to pay a price, and oftentimes that price is consistency actually. 

Amber B 30:15 

Just so good.  

Monica Packer 30:16 

It's the reverse of what happens, right?  

Amber B 30:17 

Yeah. 

Monica Packer 30:18 

If you start with that. 

Amber B 30:19 

The price is consistency.  

Monica Packer 30:20 

Consistency. You're paying the price of consistency  

Amber B 30:21 

That's so good. 

Monica Packer 30:22 

And this is where I just want to add here we've we've talked about a lot of things about what habits are. Habits are subjective, habits are supportive, habits are also brain hacking. It's not about us trying to become superhumans. It's working with the brains we have and that's where baselines come in. When you have baselines, your brain will know it requires such low energy that it's easy for you to do and and actually that can create momentum and you do more than you think you can do. But if you start with the baselines, when you actually have a day where your energy is the lowest. Your brain's going to believe you when you say it's a baseline day for us to have it because you've done it.  

Amber B 30:58 

Sure. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like having examples can be really helpful for people who are trying to make some of these changes, and so I am curious, what are some and you can either share from your own personal life or even from some of your clients’ lives. What are some of the habits that you've seen that have really change the game for that person or for you that again, not not because that's the right habit to have. But if you can kind of walk people through the process of like how it changed the game for you or for a client, maybe people can start to see, can step back and start to see areas in their life that they could address and create some of the habit that would also be supportive for the lives they want to live. 

Monica Packer 31:35 

There's this short list of habits that are the most common that women want to work on, and they can include things like exercising, journaling, meditation, sleep. But I would say the biggest deal breakers in my experience, the ones that like they think they want to work on this habit but we what we end up working on instead because it will actually make that habit more possible for them is better sleep. And to do that. 

Amber B 32:05 

You can you can just drop that and like walk away, we gotta, like, define this. We gotta, like figure it out because I think you're right. And I think yes, a lot of people need this. 

Monica Packer 32:11 

Yeah, they do. And I that was the one I had to start on because I am a nighttime, night owl or sorry, let me say it again. I'm a lifetime night owl. Like this is from infancy. I was a terrible late sleeper. 

Amber B 32:27 

I like die at the night time. 

Monica Packer 32:29 

I've gotten so much better, I have to tell you. I look forward to my earlier bedtime. I look forward to waking up. I don't think everybody has to be early to bed early to rise. So let me just state that. 

Amber B 32:39 

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. 

Monica Packer 32:39 

Okay, this isn't what we're saying. We're saying getting better sleep. We're not talking about the metrics again, it's not like, oh, you, so you're in bed and sleep by 10 and you're awake at 5. Nope. It's still about what does good sleep look like for you? And what do those hours look like for you? But having better sleep period is a make it or break it for so many women in ways that they are in dramatic ways understating in our lives. And that has a lot to do with especially our American culture on productivity. Right, and you're less for the strong person if you need more sleep and all that, so sleep. But this is where it gets complicated, because to work on sleep you're not usually working on just like Oh well, I just go to sleep, you know. 

Amber B 33:27 

Right. If getting better sleep was easy, everybody would do it. 

Monica Packer 33:30 

You would just do it it it really goes OK let me give you another statement here. Habits go deeper. Habits are always about deeper things. So, this is where we get to go back to the self-awareness piece. What is going on objectively? Look at your night times and get clear about what are the circumstances that are leading to you delaying bedtime or getting less sleep, whether that's at night or in the morning. Get clear on what is happening and then you go to you got to go deeper because they often do. Why do I think I can't rest? Or sometimes it's going deeper within your household relationships. You know, why is it that I am the one who's worrying about all of these things that other people are capable about, worrying about and taking care of two. OK. Or if you're scrolling, scrolling, scrolling like, why am I scrolling? What void am I trying to feel? I maybe I need more connection and that actually is going to help me get better sleep at night. Maybe I need better movement, maybe I need a wind down routine. Nighttime is not about productivity. It's about winding down, period. So this is where unfortunately and this is the bummer for those of us who are loving those black and white, easy answers and prescriptions is I'm not in the business of giving prescriptions. I'm in the business of helping you come up with your own prescriptions. So that means, you've got to do the nuanced journey, but actually is the right journey of figuring out what that looks like for you to get better sleep. And this is why I hate so much of what happens on in the personal development world, because they thrive off of the message of certainty. 

Amber B 35:12 

Sure, yeah. 

Monica Packer 35:13 

Right? And the how that hear the prescriptions, but yeah. Those don't work unless they match you and your needs, your season and actually what's really going on. So if if there was something to work on, I would say honestly, almost every woman who I've ever worked with, it's come, come back to sleep. And often sleep is made better by some self-care habits another time during the day or the night. 

Amber B 35:38 

That's so good. What was one of the things that you implemented that helped you to improve your sleep? 

Monica Packer 35:46 

Mhmm. It's the clocking out for me.  

Amber B 35:48 

Like turning off the, turning off the mental load like being like. I’m done. 

Monica Packer 35:52 

I'm. Yeah. Everything's done. And because I have 5 kids and I have limited childcare. I do often have to work at night. So I have to have a clock out time where I know I'm off the clock for both my literal like work that you see me doing online and my literal work I'm doing at home. So it's like 9:00 PM is my you're off the clock and I have an alarm that goes off on my watch. And then here's the kicker though. I will never get off the clock unless I have something to look forward to, because I'm already in motion. 

Amber B 36:22 

That's good. 

Monica Packer 36:23 

With working, you know, so I have the best nighttime routine that I look forward to every night.  

Amber B 36:30 

I love that.  

Monica Packer 36:31 

That is what helps me get to bed, Amber.  

Amber B 36:33 

So good, that's so good.  

Monica Packer 36:34 

It’s because I have a whole nighttime routine. Do you want me to share what it is? 

Amber B 36:38 

I would love it. Yeah. Please. 

Monica Packer 36:39 

Okay. And actually one of the things I do that helps is I also have a habit that helps me lower the obstacle, like lower the hurdle to getting to bed. And one of the hurdles to me to getting to bed is getting in my pajamas and washing my face and do my whole skin care routine because I amend a FOMO when it comes to skin care and I I have a too big ever routine. It needs to be simplified. I know this. I have a baseline version of it, just so everyone knows, but so I start with when I put my baby to bed, I get on my pajamas and I do my skin care right then, while I still have some energy.  

Amber B 37:12 

Yeah. Get it over with. 

Monica Packer 37:13 

But this is like 8:00 PM. I'm not going to bed yet. So then that's when I I have to work and I work for a while or I'm cleaning the kitchen. I'm doing stuff around the house, but then I've got my 9:00 PM cut off. That's when I get my treat. And these can be protein balls. It can be a yogurt bowl like it could be something like that or it can be a bowl of ice cream. Depends on the night. Right. I get my treat and then I get to watch my show, whether it's with my husband or on my own. And that helps me wind down. It helps me, you know, clock out. And once I've watched a little while, sometimes it's 30 minutes, sometimes it may be an hour. It tends to be less time because I actually look forward to what's coming. Still, I brush my teeth, I do my journaling still, I say my prayers, and then I get in bed and I read a book until I fall asleep on my Kindle because that helps me and I I still deal with insomnia. That was a big problem for me years ago when I first started work on this. And I know it's different for every person, but for me, oh, by the way, I plugged my phone in outside of my room. My phone is plugged outside my room. But I, my Kindle helps me fall asleep, even in the middle of the night, because now my body is, my brain, brain hacking again it's used to it. My brain knows when the lights off and I'm reading my Kindle. It can go to sleep. And that happens even at 3:00 AM. If my baby wakes up and I have to go back to sleep and my brain is turning. I put in my book and I'm able to drift off. 

Amber B 38:35 

So good. Ohh, it's so fun. And again right. Like we're not saying that this is the bedtime routine, right? Like this is an example of something that you have practiced. You have tested out. You've tried different things and you've found what is what works for you to be able to get you into that state. And that's what we're advocating for, right, is you figuring out what works for you. 

Monica Packer 38:54 

And what I just shared, by the way isn’t ideal and it's a routine. So one thing that think about is habits are not routines, but routines can become habit. So if if you're so habits are not routine. OK, but routines can become habit, and that's kind of a planned words. But what I'm saying here is a lot of times we think we're starting a habit, but we're really starting a routine and that's going to require a lot of energy. So you got to break out what's that routine. Because a routine is a series of habits stacked together during a certain time of day, during a certain time frame. So if I were to give you my baseline of my whole nighttime routine, the one habit I would do for me, this is how I started. I don't do it now. What got me to bed? What helped me, you know, clock out was I had People Magazine on my night stand. And that was when I got to read my People Magazine. That was my habit. That was it. That was. That was the way I started. That was it. There was no nighttime routine. There was no, like, 10 step routine that I just shared with you. That was it. I get to read People Magazine at night, and that would get me to bed sooner. And I gradually was able to move it up gradually, gradually and have and also build up our routine more too, and now my routine is the habit. Because I started with the building process towards that fuller routine, if that makes sense now, I don't have to think about all the steps because now the routine is a habit. 

Amber B 40:16 

Yeah. Well, the other thing I heard in you describing this too is that it's. It's enjoyable. And I think that that's a piece that's missing for a lot of people. Sometimes I even think about this with going to the gym as a habit as like if you hate it and you hate every moment that you're there and you hate everything that you're doing, it's no wonder that you can't make it into a consistent habit. So how can we figure out something that you like? How can we figure out something that is enjoyable for you so you actually look forward to the habit you don't have to force yourself into the habit. 

Monica Packer 40:45 

And how can we make a habit that's still a blah habit at the end of the day, like laundry for me or you're planning I hate. How can we still make it feel good? That's another way we do brain hacking with habit formation is we make it feel good. So it may not be the habit itself. It may be something you pair it with. That's why I listen. And when I say parrot, I'm not talking about the bird, P-A-I-R separate word I-T, pair it. That means you pair a blah task with a yay feeling or yay task. So that's why I listen to audiobooks while I'm washing the dishes or cleaning the kitchen or doing the laundry. Or you can light a candle. You can blast your favorite music from the from the OPS, the early OPS right, like you've got it. You can find ways to still make the blah habits feel good. 

Amber B 41:28 

Yeah. That's so, so good, because there are things that we just need to do and like we got to brush our teeth and I don't think anybody's like super excited about brushing their teeth. 

Monica Packer 41:36 

Yeah. I still hate doing my skin care, but I love the results, so I'm always listening to. I always save some podcasts for that like I save my pop culture podcast. We're getting ready. I I saved the This American Life for other times. 

Amber B 41:51 

Yeah. That’s so good. Yeah. It's so smart to, I mean, and it seems so, like, duh. But it is. But it's not to, like, make it fun as possible. Yeah, blah task. Let's make it as fun as possible. And saving, like, something special for that time helps to make it a little bit more enjoyable and something that you can, you can do every single day.  

Monica Packer 42:12 

And your brain's gonna want to do it. 

Amber B 42:13 

Yeah. Which is brilliant. Like the? Yeah. The brain hacking part of it is is so so fabulous, now, can because we talked about this idea of flexibility like I love that you said consistency isn't rigidity. Consistency is built on flexibility. So how do we maintain this balance between doing their habits, having them be supportive, and knowing that the more that we do them, the more they are supporting us, but at the same time allowing ourselves the flexibility of not feeling constrained or bound by them. 

Monica Packer 42:43 

Hmm. This is where we have to prove ourselves wrong, because what you are working against is not only an entire world's worth of culture and societal pressures and pressures on what habit formation is you have internalized these so deep in your subconscious that really what happens is we're retraining our brain. We are changing the neural pathways in our brain, it’s traumatic. But you literally are doing that.  

Amber B 43:11 

Oh yeah, doing it. 

Monica Packer 43:12 

As we're trying a new way. Yes. So you have to be willing to prove yourself wrong. You have to be willing to believe that baselines count. And there's actually another brain hacking thing we can do to help with that, too, and it's practicing it. This is something you do outside of real time. You go through your habit three to five times in a row, almost like an actor blocking out where they are in a stage. So you're not, like, literally running for 15 minutes because that's your baseline. But you might you know, run through like what I do to get to that spot and that can help your brain remember it easier, more easily too. But honestly, just comes back to you gotta prove yourself wrong. Be willing to take a chance, is this way. Like, let's do Doctor Phil, how's it working for you? Is it working? Maybe there are some things that it's working pretty well. OK, cool. Then you then you got those habits. But where it's not working, try something new. 

Amber B 44:06 

It's good. 

Monica Packer 44:06 

Nothing to make it worse. 

Amber B 44:08 

It's really good. This has been so awesome and really turned a lot of what I think people think about when they think about habits on its head. Having a little different way and and a way that we can have habits really support who we are, what our identity is, what we want to create. The feelings that we want to evoke. Which is just such an awesome way to be able to think about habits. If somebody is wanting to connect with you Monica, they're wanting to learn more about your habits course. Where can they find you? 

Monica Packer 44:34 

Yeah. So I'm primarily a podcaster at About Progress and habits, funnily enough, are just one of the arms of the things that we talked about. We talked about everything personal development with progress, not perfection in mind, but they can find me on Instagram where I do talk more about habits. And my course is called the Sticky Habit Intensive. It's a live course now, so it's more of a live community and I teach and we coach as we go. And there's a private Facebook with the Facebook online community we have. But that's not going to be happening until the fall. So just make sure you're, you know, listening to my stuff and following me on Instagram and you'll see when it's opening up, likely in September. 

Amber B 45:11 

Awesome. Yeah. And this will will air more towards the end of the summer, so that will kind of coincide, really well with being able to go and learn from Monica. 

Monica Packer 45:19 

Awesome. 

Amber B 45:20 

And wait for her stuff to open up for you, that's awesome. 

Monica Packer 45:22 

Yeah. And if you think I have a lot to say about habits like you should. 

Amber B 45:26 

We just got a snapshot. 

Monica Packer 45:27 

You should see an intensive you just. Yeah. At the same time, it's very practical. Like you will make change. Yeah. And the funest change that women make when they do habits differently is the way they. They changed seeing themselves. 

Amber B 45:42 

Yes, I mean it's the best, right? Like it is the best when you can help a woman see herself in a different light and feel empowered to be able to go out and create their life that is that she wants to create. So good. Thank you so much. Monica, this is fascinating. 

Monica Packer 45:51 

Yeah. 

Amber B 45:54 

And appreciate you coming on. 

Monica Packer 45:55 

Well, it was a joy. Thanks for having me. 

Amber B 45:58 

Such a good episode. Thanks so much to Monica for coming on and being willing to share so much valuable content, information about habits and how to reframe them in our brain, how to hack our brain to be able to make us, you know build more supportive habits. It really comes down to there's no right or wrong habit, I love what she said there's no right or wrong habit there. It's just where is that habit coming from. And is it supportive of the life that we want to live. I also love the emphasis on sleep. I think she's so right that so many of us are trying to live our best lives, do our best work, and we're not getting the sleep that we need to be able to do that. And so I just found it fascinating what she said about how with so many women who want to implement new habits or make change in their life starting with sleep and making sure that you're getting good quality sleep can make the rest of your life so much easier so I thought that was just fascinating. 

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you go let Monica know on her Instagram page About Progress. We'll link it up in the show notes and you know, let me know what your biggest take away was from this episode. What are you implementing? We all know that learning is great, but it is the implementation of the learning that actually makes the difference in your journey. Also, if you haven't yet, please leave a rating and review for the podcast, that helps other people to be able to find the podcast and it really helps to be able to get this content out to more people. That wraps up this episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm Amber, now go out and be strong because remember my friend, you can do anything.  

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