338: Getting Your Picky Eating Kids To Eat Their Veggies with Alyssa Miller, RD

Introduction 

You're listening to Biceps After Babies Radio Episode 338.

Hello and welcome to Biceps After Babies Radio. A podcast for ladies who know that fitness is about so much more than pounds lost or PR's. It's about feeling confident in your skin and empowered in your life. I'm your host Amber Brueseke, a registered nurse, personal trainer, wife and mom of four. Each week my guests and I will excite and motivate you to take action in your own personal fitness as we talk about nutrition, exercise, mindset, personal development and executing life with conscious intention. If your goal is to look, feel and be strong and experience transformation from the inside out, you my friend are in the right place. Thank you for tuning in. Now, let's jump into today's episode.

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm your host, Amber Brueseke, and today I'm interviewing my friend, Alyssa Miller, and she's here to talk to us about picky kids and helping your picky kids to be able to eat more food, to be able to get out of that power struggle that a lot of us find ourselves in when it comes to food with our children, how to get them to eat more vegetables, how to help them to have a healthy relationship with food. I think a lot of us listening to this podcast are working on our relationship with food, and of course, we likely want that for our kids as well. Alyssa really does a great job of addressing how we build that healthy relationship with food with our kids and how we get out of this dang power struggle of trying to force our kids into eating the foods that we want them to eat. She just has such a pragmatic approach to picky eating that I am just so excited to be able to share this episode with you on the podcast today. So, let's dive in to our episode with Alyssa Miller. 

Amber B 01:50 

 I'm so excited to have Alyssa on the podcast. Alyssa, welcome.  

Alyssa Miller 01:55 

Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.  

Amber B 01:58 

Me too. OK. Start a little bit by just sharing a little bit about your background and how you got into the realm of helping with picky children. I'm so curious to hear about this.  

Alyssa Miller 02:07 

You know, I think it's kind of a funny story too. I'm a registered dietitian, first and foremost, and in our undergrad, I remember we took Life Cycles Nutrition. I remember learning about picky eating in class and taking notes and being like, I'm going to ace this test. I totally got this on lock. I thought I had picky eating all figured out when I was 21. 

Amber B 02:27 

Oh, yeah. You know everything about parenting when you're 21. It's really shocking.  

Alyssa Miller 02:32 

It's really, you know. But I read this thing that was like, this is why the species continues because we keep thinking we can do it. We're like, I see that you're struggling,  

Amber B 02:38 

I got this. 

Alyssa Miller 02:39 

But actually I can figure this out. I have the keys. Totally. And so it's so funny because I like randomly will have flashbacks back to those moments of being like, remember how confident I was? Remember when I had this all figured out? And then I had my own kid. And at the time, I was working as a clinical dietitian in the tube feeding space. And I really loved helping people come off tube feeding and go back to solid foods, especially kids, but really all ages. I just love that transition. It's such a unique experience for people who have never swallowed by mouth. 

So tube feeding, you're eating via tube, right? Directly to your stomach or through your nose or whatever. For some people, they'd never swallowed by mouth. For some people, they'd been eating their whole life, got on a tube, had to stop eating by mouth. And then we're coming back to it. And I loved that process. It was so rewarding for me. 

So at the time, I was experiencing this at my day job. And then at home, my son was getting pickier and pickier. And I honestly, I pinpoint it to one experience. Because as a parent, I think we all have these moments that are like forks in the road, right? Like, okay, which direction are we going to go? And with my son, I remember he was about two and a half at the time. We went to Chick-fil-A with friends. And she had older kids. My friend did. And her daughter really wanted to go play in the play place, which is why we were there really to have the kids play and burn off energy. But she hadn't eaten anything. And her mom, my friend, basically looked at her daughter and just have three more bites of chicken and then you can go play, which is like age old. We've probably all said this at this point. And I remember my son also wanted to go play with her daughter, his friend. And he kind of looked at me and I looked at him and he was so excited to play. And I kind of felt this fork in the road moment. I don't really know what to do. So I just kind of was like, yeah, finish your chicken, then you can go play.  

Amber B 04:18 

Yeah. 

Alyssa Miller 04:18 

I didn't want to deal with an angry meltdown. I didn't want to have to be pulling my kid down from the play structure. And I knew if he didn't eat, it was going to go downhill real fast. So I was like, yeah, this seemed to work for her kid. And here's the problem is that it worked. Like in the moment, it totally worked when I was like, hey, finish your chicken, then you can go play. It was kind of this negotiation. And I got into this habit of negotiation because I always like to say, it's the thing no one will tell you, but it does work at the beginning. 

And you don't realize you're kind of like digging your own grave with picky eating, where now all of a sudden you're in this like constant negotiation. Yes. And ultimately, like it gets to the point where you're just like, just look at the broccoli and I will give you an entire piece of cake. Like it starts to escalate to that point where you're all of a sudden just feeling kind of like held hostage by your kid because you have to promise all these things to get them to eat the food that you knew that they needed to eat. So bringing it back to me. So that was kind of the moment where I was like, okay, I'm helping people at work, start eating solid food. I have some of these skills, but not necessarily because of pickiness, but because there was a different reason for them not being able to eat by mouth. But the principles kind of applied. And so I really kind of went back into the research, realized that everything I learned in undergrad was very surface level. 

Like this isn't actually going to work long-term. And although the principles are real and good and helpful, they really weren't enough for my very hardheaded, stubborn kid. And so I really dug into the research and started working on my own kid reversing pick eating. I had like an Instagram account at the time and I was kind of sharing my story and so many parents resonated with it that I just kept going and literally could not stop. And it didn't feel like work to me. I was like, this is just so fun. I'm reversing my kids pick eating. He's eating more and more healthy foods. I'm able to help other people. I'm able to help my friends. And that's kind of how it all evolved. And just since then, now he's eight. And last night he was eating like shrimp curry and wanted some spicy sauce on there. And I was just kind of like laughing at just how full circle it's been and how, how much of a journey it's been.  

Amber B 06:10 

Yeah. How far, how far you both have come in, in that period of time?  

Alyssa Miller 06:14 

Totally. It's been such a journey and it's been fun too, to then go from, you know, at the time being a mom and he was two and a half completely on experience with pick eating to now having a second and a third kid that I'm not only, you know, really looking at things like a hawk, like paying attention to what they're eating and are they getting picky? Are they not? Can I reverse it? Can I prevent it? You know, what tactics can I use? It's kind of a more fun place to be when you have the tools in your tool belt than like scrambling in the moment of like, oh my gosh, my kid hasn't eaten a vegetable in like four months, you know?  

Amber B 06:42 

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So you often talk about how picky eating is a symptom and like not the actual problems. What does that mean? Explain more about that. 

Alyssa Miller 06:51 

Oh man. I love talking about this because I feel like it, it does so many things to the parents. First their eyes like light up where they're all of a sudden, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And it takes the pressure off, you know, because we're focused on trying to fix this problem and we think the problem is picky eating. So then we're just like throwing anything we can at it, likely what our parents did to us around the table, how they parented us, what we see other parents doing, just like my experience with Chick-fil-A. Like you're just kind of looking around like, what are you guys doing? What can I do? And you know, you see picky eating as this like a nemesis that you're trying to like fight. 

And it's actually not the picky eating. The picky eating is the result or the symptom of what's going on deeper. And this is why, and why I think a lot of parents like their eyes kind of light up and they feel like a big breath of relief. But this is why likely the tactics that you might be using don't work or don't work long-term is because the tip or trick, you know, I always like use a joke as sprinkles, which I totally talk about using sprinkles. I'm on a page and it's a viral hack. Everyone loves rainbow sprinkles and you put it on anything and the kid seems to eat it like the first time, but that like wears off pretty quick. 

And you know, it's kind of fun is like, you start to realize that there's different tactics and strategies out there. Some more on like the viral hacks and tips and tricks that go viral in seven seconds or less on Instagram, but some that are more like nuanced and you can't really see. And it might work for one kid, but not for your kid. And that's why, even though your kid and her kid are both picky, they're picky for different reasons. So one might be, you know, this kid is picky because he has some sort of diagnosis. Like maybe he has a swallowing issue. Maybe he has oral motor skills that just aren't fully developed for whatever reason. And then your kid might be picky because they're easily distracted. Maybe they have a diagnosis of ADHD or something that they really want to get up out of the table and go play and food is not that interesting to them. Or maybe someone else's kid is picky because they have sensory aversions. They really don't like anything that's not smooth and soft and, and creamy or cold and, and all those sorts of things. They really have texture issues. 

And so if you try to apply the same principles to each of those kids, the same strategies, it's just not going to work the same for each kid because they're all so different. And that's where it starts to kind of set in to parents to recognize that picky eating, although yes, feels like a problem. It's actually the symptom that something else deeper is going on. And if we fix that, everything else really falls into place quite nicely.  

Amber B 09:08 

So it's like if we actually get the diagnosis correct, then like there's going to be various treatment plans for each of the different diagnoses. But if you're just trying to like blanket, say they're picky eaters, you can't actually go to the right treatment plan for that kid. 

Alyssa Miller 09:20 

Yeah. And it can be so exhausting for parents to try all. I mean, I was one of them, right? I was listening to all the podcasts. I was trying to read all the blogs and Google everything. And I had a real a long time ago that I absolutely love that was just make me typing on Google. What is picky eating? How can I fix picky eating? How can I get my kid to eat a vegetable? How long can my kid not eat a vegetable for it? And then just recognizing that we are all researching so much and trying different things. We get burnt out because of course we do. It's like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole. We've all heard that example, but that's really true. That if we're trying to use an inadequate solution for the wrong problem, it's not going to add up and we're going to get exhausted. We're going to get burnt out. We're going to get frustrated. And ultimately we're going to throw in the towel. And that's where I feel like a lot of parents come to me is they're at their wits end. I hear that almost every day. I'm at my wits end. My picky eater is driving me nuts. I'm about to give up. Can I just feed them goldfish and chicken nuggets for the rest of their life? They really ask me that all the time because it's so exhausting. Well, of course it is. I was in the same boat. 

And I think that's kind of where I come from with my unique ability to say, I remember those days. I remember staying up late and crying and getting frustrated and feeling defeated meal after meal, getting angry. I had a lot of anger that would come out over picky eating, a lot of frustration, a lot of embarrassment and shame, especially being a dietician. 

Amber B 10:35 

Sure. Yeah. 

Alyssa Miller 10:36 

You know, my kid won't even eat a vegetable. Oh my gosh. I wanted to live this healthy lifestyle. I wanted to eat healthy. My kid won't even eat anything that I want to put on the table. And so it was just a very hard moment and I can relate to that so much. And so I hope that people can see my heart and my compassion for that because it can be such a hard place to be.  

Amber B 10:53 

Mm-hmm. So some of the like, you know, getting down to what is actually causing the picky eating were a lot in like the medical realm, right? The ADHD, the like texture issues. Are there other issues that are maybe not medical related, but are like more like personality, like the control, like the fight over control or other things that are kind of personality of more of the kid that just lean more towards that picky eating?  

Alyssa Miller 11:16 

Oh, absolutely. And this is where a lot of my kids, like his root cause for picky eating is much more behavioral. So his was his personality. Like I said, he was very stubborn. I love him to death and I know he's going to do amazing things, but aren't you just like, but not right now. Can we just wait for the amazing things to come for later? And that, you know, he's just very, he really always wants to know why, why do I have to do this? Why don't you know, he's always pushing, you know, I, he was never the kid that I could just say something and he accepts it. 

And the more parents I talked to, do those kids exist? Like, no, but I feel like all of our kids, you know, they're supposed to be questioning. And I actually talk a lot about this to my to my table talkers that basically like that's their job is to figure out how the world works and ask questions and push on boundaries and figure out, you know, where the line is and what's mom going to do if I cross that line and you know, how does this whole parenting thing work and who can, who can I get to say yes. All of that came up with my son. 

And so, you know, what I always like to say is that parents are uniquely positioned to help their kids out of picky eating. Most kids aren't going to wake up and just go, you know what, mom, I would love some broccoli for breakfast. Like, can you put some broccoli in my eggs? Like, they're probably not going to say that. So what we can do is affect the room. Now that comes kind of with like a double edged sword, right? Because how we talk to kids about food, how we eat food, how we, you know, handle situations of pickiness, like all of a sudden they're like not eating their food. And the way that we respond both energetically, but also in like the very 3D realm of like what we say and how we handle that situation has a huge impact on picky eating. 

And a lot of parents or people online and in person will say picky eating is just a phase. We've all heard that. It's just a phase, wait it out, whatever. That is true to an extent. Now, some kids' picky eating won't go away on its own. Like I said, some kids' picky eating is just a phase, but the way that we respond to it, like kind of with my son, makes them dig in their heels and we end up digging our own grave essentially. We have to dig ourselves out of a hole or the example I always like to say it's like an avalanche, like it starts with a snowball. But if we don't right that wrong, if we don't handle it appropriately at the table, we tend to make picky eating last longer, be more frustrating, and be harder to get out of. And that's really comes in with like habits and routines. 

So yes, absolutely. Temperament of your kid plays a huge role in picky eating and how they respond to it, but also our responses, our emotions around it. I know so many parents have their own experiences with food, whether it's their relationship to food as an adult, but also a lot of that was rooted in how you were raised around the table. 

Amber B 13:42 

Sure. 

Alyssa Miller 13:43 

And that's where I started to get really passionate about this was because I saw I was actually helping women at the time heal their relationship with food, very similarly to what you do. And I didn't recognize how much of this has really stemmed for how they were raised around food, how their mom treated food, you know, the diets that maybe their mom put them on or whatever that might be. And it's all just so ingrained and we like to compartmentalize our life. 

Like this is how I treat food as an adult, so my kids should act the same. And it's really just different and all really does kind of build this story. So absolutely. There's like temperamental, you know, their behavioral habits, really habits play a big role with our kid and those root causes. Also just like skill, like one of the root causes for picky eating is just the lack of skill. They literally don't know how to eat the food. 

I'll never forget. There's a few moments with each kid where we've had to actually like teach them how to eat spaghetti. Like that's a hard food to like get on a fork and have it stay there. They get really frustrated. Toddlers don't know how to use forks. They're oftentimes just using their hand. So they get really frustrated when it falls off a spoon, using a spoon to eat soup is really difficult. So there's like a lot of skill that we don't really recognize or we put a sandwich in front of our kid and expect them to eat it. Meanwhile, they're like, this sandwich is double the size of my mouth. How do you want me to actually eat this? Or I always joke like tacos, like we probably all assume the position when we're eating tacos, we fold it up, we turn our head, we put it in our mouth and take a bite. Like we don't teach our kids that, but we just put it in front of them. And we're just like, good luck. Like, why aren't you eating? It's like, they don't even know what this is. Like this is brand new to them. And so skill is a big one too, that it, you know, isn't necessarily medical and it's just a developmental phase that we get to teach them how to handle and how to address food and build those memories with food. 

A lot of times we don't recognize that kids are brand new. They're blank slates. So, you know, they don't, they're not able to look at a pomegranate seed and go, Oh, that's going to be juicy and sweet. We can do that because we have, you know, 30 plus years of experience with food. They literally don't have hardly any. And so they're not able to make that delineation between like a raspberry and a pomegranate and how it's going to be different. But we see it as parents were like, well, you like raspberries. Why don't you like this food? And it's just completely different to them. It's a new experience. 

Amber B 15:53 

That's so good. So how does one, if you, if you know, someone's listening to this and they have a picky kid and they probably have tried all the things and they're like, that makes a lot of sense. Like figuring out the root cause is going to be the first step to being able to help my kid fix this. How do they go about doing that? Like, how do you know if it's a texture issue or personality issue or an ADHD issue or, you know, any of these other issues that are, are causing it?  

Alyssa Miller 16:15 

Yeah. Well, I love this question for two reasons. One, because there's kind of two parts of this question. A lot of parents will ask me, do you have to know your kid's root cause? No, you don't have to know. But if you want the biggest bang for your buck, if you want to be using the strategies that are going to, you know, move the needle the most, then I recommend it, at least to the best of your ability, try to figure it out. Because at the end of the day, if you're throwing spaghetti at a wall, eventually something's going to stick, right? And you can figure it out and just duplicate that. 

Now, what ended up happening with me, and I know a lot of the parents that I coach too, is that they found something that works right from the beginning of our conversation, but then they didn't realize that like, okay, now we're down the mountain and like a full on avalanche, and it's actually worse, not better. So it might have worked in the moment for that day or that week or that month. But now I can't hardly get my kid to even look at a vegetable unless I offer, you know, a ton of candy or whatever, which I don't want to be doing every night. So there's that portion of it.  

The second portion is, so in my free class, I actually go through the root causes. And this is something that I've developed over years of working with parents of pick eating. So these are the root causes that I have picked out from families and identified how these affect picky eaters. So you're not going to be able to like, go online and look up the research article that proves that these are the picky eating root causes. This is what I've identified anecdotally through working with thousands and thousands of families, and it's working pretty well. 

And so there's, you know, a lot of families will feel really frustrated because they can't identify the root cause. So it doesn't, you don't have to know it, but also it does help align kind of what your next steps are and knowing that it does take time. So a lot of parents will be like, Oh, I figured out the root cause. And I did that one strategy one night. It should be all fixed. It's not, unfortunately that's not the case. 

Now I do have some stories of parents who within 24, 48 hours, one week had completely reverse pick eating. That is not the case. That's not what I guarantee by any means, but that can happen because it really does matter what's causing it. So I think just analyzing your kid, like the biggest thing that you can do without being too obvious, right? Because we know kids don't love like to be total attention and everyone's like watching every move that they make, right? And analyzing it. No one likes that. But really sitting back and just observing meals can be really helpful. 

Are there certain textures that they do or don't eat? Are, you know, how long do they sit at the table? How engaged with the food are they? Are they only eating what I call their safe food, their favorite foods? Are they even touching or interacting with other foods? Are they physically safe at the table? Do they feel, you know, supported in their seat, whatever that might be? Are they easily distracted? There's just like some questions you can kind of work through. And the other reason why I'm really excited for you to ask that question and I can officially announce it because probably by now that this episode is released, I've announced it to the public, is that I'm creating a quiz, a really customized quiz, 

Amber B 19:00 

Sweet. 

Alyssa Miller 19:00 

To help people inside my course, identify their root cause. Now TBD on if I'm going to be able to release that to public or not. But it is inside going to be inside of our course, because I know so many families get frustrated and get stuck at that point of like, because I have, you know, videos and explanations and examples and all those sorts of things. But they go, I just don't know. And a lot of times they don't know because it's multiple root causes. It's not just one thing. It's like, Oh, yeah, this one issue is that it's usually, it may start with one root cause, but it over time develops into three or four, like, hypothetically, let's say it starts with like a texture issue, that texture issue, rather, it might have actually started with a previous experience with a really crunchy food. Like my daughter choked on some granola at one point. She doesn't like granola to this day. And I don't blame her. It's like fully choked on granola, you're gonna have this experience. 

Well, now, you know, it's very easy to develop a sensory issue around crunchy foods, like crunchy hard foods, because now all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, so we might see it and say, Oh, it's a sensory issue, when actually, it's like this past experience, this kind of relationship they have with those types of food. And so you can kind of start to see how it gets a little muddy, a little confusing, and it doesn't have to be perfect, right? Like, I'm so type A, I'm so like, I want the linear, like, first this, then that. And although yes, that is nice. It's not always so cut and dry with parents and their kids. And that's why it's really about like, what are the top three or four things affecting your kids pick eating? And how can we just use the strategy that's going to move the needle the most?  

Amber B 20:29 

Yeah, it's so good. Let's can we talk about like vegetables, because I feel like that's probably one of the most common and frequent issues that kids have. And so what would you say is your philosophy in like, how do we get our kids to be vegetable eaters, knowing that that's not something that most kids are drawn to taste wise, but we know that is very healthy for them and sets them up for you know, a lifetime of health. How do we introduce vegetables? How do we talk about vegetables? Do we force our kids to eat vegetables? We just like, let them explore themselves. Like, give me all the tips. 

Alyssa Miller 21:00 

Oh, I love this. Yeah, vegetables is a big one for a lot of families like vegetables and meat are usually the two foods that parents come to me and they're like, my kids will not eat this food. And you know, at the end of the day, vegetables are healthy for our kids. They're healthy for us. We want to be eating vegetables. That was the biggest like pain in my side is like, I want to eat vegetables. And I'm not interested in cooking multiple sides for multiple people on multiple days and multiple meals all the time. And so I want to be able to cook one meal with, you know, our, our range or variety of food and know that my kid's going to eat at least most of it. If not, you know, a little from every piece of whatever I'm serving or whatever that might be, or I want to be able to mix in vegetables to a mixed dish and not have them completely freak out and reject the entire dish. 

So that being said, you're spot on vegetables are a hard texture. They're a hard flavor. They're typically less accepted by kids because they're also kind of like wild colors. Like they can be definitely wild colors compared to what they're used to. So with that in mind, no, I do not recommend forcing your kids to eat vegetables. It's very rare that I've heard that works for kids, especially maybe it worked in the moment, but again, even like as adults, and I always like to zoom out and say, okay, what kind of eaters do we want to raise? Like I want my kids to go off to college and eat vegetables because they want to not because I'm bringing them down their neck. 

Amber B 22:14 

Right.  

Alyssa Miller 22:15 

I want to set my kids up for success long term in their life. And you know, I can't even tell you, I literally could pull up my Instagram right now and probably ask, and I would get thousands and thousands of DMS saying that their partner is picky. Their friend is picky. They're picky. Their best friend's wife is picky or whatever. And it impacts their day and their life and their relationship. So there is further impacts and there's absolutely kids who don't grow out of this like just a phase and end up pulling into adulthood. Okay. 

All that to say, let's pull it back to vegetables on some tangible tips on how to get your kids to eat vegetables. Number one, serve them. Serve them often. A lot of parents will say, I don't want to go through the bother of making broccoli. They're not even going to eat it. Right. And we hear that a lot. We might even, I say that to myself, sometimes I'm like, Oh, is it really worth the effort? It is worth the effort because every experience they have with broccoli is going to bring them one step closer to actually eating broccoli. And we typically tend to think that the eating, like taking a bite, chewing it and swallowing it is like what we see as the goal. But that's actually like way down the road. The first step is to have them see it. The first step is to have it on their plate. The next step might be that they keep it on their plate. They don't throw it across the room. The next step might be that they smell it or, you know, touch it or interact with it in some way. 

And then it might be, you know, I think the last research article that came out said it was an average of 32 exposures to a food before your kid actually eats it. That's a lot, right? That's a month straight. And who's eating broccoli every day for a month?  

Amber B 23:42 

Every single day for a month. 

Alyssa Miller 23:43 

Yeah. Right. Like, unless you're a crazy food prepper, you're probably not doing that. And so I just want you to think of how many exposures that really is. And again, that's average. So that means one kid eats it the first time they see it. Another kid is what, 60? 60, yeah. The average at 30? Yeah, exactly. So it could be multiple exposures. So number one is make it. Number two is make it taste good. And this is where I think a lot of parents and I wonder too, especially in your community, I know you have great recipes, but really, you know, enjoying those foods that you want to be eating, not just eating them because you have to, to like tick a box. 

Like this actually tastes good. Right. And we really want to capitalize on if your kid eats that food, oh man, you want it to taste good because then you want them to eat it again. 

Amber B 24:26 

Right. Reinforce it. Yeah. It's like positive reinforcement.  

Alyssa Miller 24:27 

Exactly. And I cannot tell you my father-in-law is a great example. He really hates anything with like vinegar. He hates cans, vegetables, because that's what he was raised on. And it didn't taste good. So now as an adult, it's like, I don't want green beans, but I'm like, okay, these are fresh green beans from the local farm. They're going to be amazing. It's going to blow your mind. And he's still like, eh, no, because he had them canned growing up. And so it's really important to capitalize on if tonight is the night. And that's what I always tell parents, like leave room for magic, be open-minded, be positive. Because if you assume they're not going to eat it, you're not going to put as much effort into it. It's not going to taste as good or whatever it might be. And then they, that's probably the night they're going to eat it. And you're going to be like, dang it. And they're not going to like it. So make it taste good. 

The third one is to put less on their plate than you expect. So a lot of parents will put like a normal serving size of broccoli on their kid's plate. Really you want to put like one small little Laurette, let them ask for more. They love to be in control, right? Like all these young kids love to be in control, love to ask you for things, especially the second you sit down to your hot food. They're like, mom, can you please go get me something else? So put one tiny bite on their plate and offer more if they, if they eat it. A lot of, a lot of kids are overwhelmed at the sight of like a mound of broccoli on their plate. 

Amber B 25:40 

Sure. Yeah. Feels like a lot.  

Alyssa Miller 25:41 

Yes. And when they're overwhelmed, they can actually feel unsafe. And when they feel unsafe, they're not going to learn. And eating new foods is learning a new skill. And so I really focus a lot with my students about psychological safety, making your kids feel really safe at the table, safe to say yes, safe to say no, safe to ask for more, safe to eat four or five servings, right? We're not also shaming them for eating too much. And we're not shaming them for eating too little. And we're not guilting them into trying something because mom spent all day making it or dad or whatever that might be. So putting less on the those are probably my top three tips that are very actionable and easy beyond that, because of the exposure piece, you want to expose them both at the table and away from the table. 

One of the things I love to do is use like food in different food play. That can be as simple as buying like fake food and playing farmer's market or using food in your arts and crafts somehow, like even those macaroni necklaces, you know, chickpea, you can like make a, what are those for? Like Christmas garlands with like chickpeas, something like that to get them more interested in those types of foods could be a really fun way to get them in a low pressure environment around that food, because it really is all just about getting them more and more familiar with these foods.  

Amber B 26:47 

And can you talk a little bit about, you know, a lot of people in my audience are in their adulthood trying to develop a better relationship with food, right? Yeah, they had a, maybe a childhood that, that it wasn't psychologically safe. And there was lots of dieting and this food is good. And this food is bad. And they're really trying to like shed a lot of that and get to this place of neutrality with food and like all foods can fit and there aren't any bad foods. 

And so they're really working on developing their own relationship with food at the same time, while trying to change it for their kids, right? Have the next generation be raised with less food shame, less food guilt. What words of wisdom do you have to somebody who is simultaneously working on their own relationship with food while also trying to help their children to develop a good relationship with food from the get-go so they don't have to do this in their adulthood?  

Alyssa Miller 27:34 

I love this so much. And it's honestly where my heart is. Like I talk about picky eating because it's a big problem with parents, but it's really about that relationship with food. And like I said, it's really is about fostering a healthy relationship with food with your kids so that they grow up to have a healthy relationship with food. A lot of times that is motivated by parents because they know how unhealthy their relationship with is, is with food and how much their parents may or may not have accidentally on purpose or not contributed to that and just society in general, right? Like it's not all the parents' fault. They have other people, peers in their life that are affecting them. But at the same time, I also see so many parents who start this journey because they're like, I just want my kid to eat a freaking vegetable. And then they get in and they work with me and they're like, oh, this is so much more than that. And now all of a sudden they're reassessing their own relationship with food. Like, oh, wow, this is really a big mirror that's holding up to me going, hmm, maybe I shouldn't, you know, reward myself with a brownie or a salad.  

Amber B 28:30 

Maybe there’s work here. 

Alyssa Miller 28:31 

Yeah, exactly. And so it's really interesting to see that evolve and, and kind of have two funnels of people coming in from different perspectives. So as far as words of wisdom goes, the number one thing you could do is model it, model it, model it, model it. The people in your community, I know you do such a good job teaching them and educating them and supporting them and coaching them into this beautiful relationship with food. All you have to do is model it. It's like, if you just think back to, if you guys are following what Amber's teaching, if your parents would have done that, how different that could have been for you as a kid. And a lot of times that means like keeping your mouth shut, right? Like modeling does not mean like, here's what I'm doing and let me tell you exactly what I'm doing. You know, it's showing with your action. So modeling the behavior, how you talk about food to yourself really matters. They pick up on that. Of course, you know, follow that up with how you talk to your kids about food, what you say to them.  

The biggest thing I think that's, especially at your beginning of your journey, when you're trying to heal yourself and your relationship with food and help your kids, it's just to stay quiet. I think sometimes we, especially me, we'll start talking with our kids. Then all of a sudden I said something, I'm like, oh darn it, I shouldn't have said that. Right? And so if I can just be quiet about food and just quietly model it through the actions I'm taking with food, the way that I'm talking about myself, the way that I'm talking about others, especially in front of my kids, all of that matters and your kids are watching that. So the quieter I can be, the better. And so really just kind of quietly being a role model for your kids and how they think about food, how they talk about food. Now, that being said, we all make mistakes. Don't beat yourself up if you say something, you know, the other day, I think I said something, I can't remember what it was exactly off the top of my head, but I remember saying it and being like, oh darn it. And it was about food. And I was just like, it's okay. Like I can repair it. I can totally fix it. Hey, do you remember when mommy said that? That's actually not true. I don't know why that came out.  

Here's what I actually think. Right. And correcting it. And I think sometimes we're so, at least for me as a parent, I can so easily let a moment slip by with my kid and just think, oh, they probably weren't even listening. They're probably not paying attention. It's not that big a deal. If I bring it back up, it's going to like cement even further. So I should just not do it. It is the opposite. 

Like it is the absolute opposite that actually the more that I lean into it and have better conversations and repair that and bring up that little, tiny moment that I don't even think they were paying attention to, I feel better about it. I feel more integrity. I know that they're learning more from it. And it's a good conversation and a good, again, role model that we can make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes and it's okay to go back and correct them. So I think those are my biggest words of wisdom when it comes to healing your relationship with food and then helping your kids do it. But because modeling is like the number one thing we can do, I think so many parents will say, oh, I'll wait till my kids are older to get healthy. I'll wait, you know, when I have more time, like I am in the throes of parenthood right now. We were just joking before we hopped on. 

I'd like to kick my kids out because they're little, right? Like I have a one-year-old, I have a four-year-old, like they need to be out of the house.  

Amber B 31:17 

Her husband has them. I feel like people are going to be like, she just kicked her kids out of the house. Her husband has them. 

Alyssa Miller 31:23 

Goodbye. You guys don't lock your door? Oh, that's so weird. Are your kids just fending for themselves? Yeah, my husband has them. But you know, it's like, I'm in the throes of parenthood and I know how exhausting. I don't feel like I'm getting enough sleep. I don't feel like, you know, it can be so easy to tell ourselves like, oh, when they're a little bit older,  

Amber B 31:38 

Later, later. 

Alyssa Miller 31:39 

I'll, yes, I'll join that workout class. Oh, when they're a little bit older, I'll, you know, meal prep or, you know, whatever it might be for today, we'll just eat more chicken nuggets and whatever. And there's nothing wrong with chicken nuggets, but of course there's sometimes foods. And so what I want to really bring this back to is that taking care of yourself and healing your relationship with food is going to be the best thing that you do for your kid and their relationship with their food bar none. You can talk to them all day about, you know, saying the right things and telling them, you know, what's good and what's like energizing and what's de-energizing and all these different kind of like gymnastics around the way that we talk about food with our kids. But if you're not modeling it, it kind of doesn't matter. And we can probably look at our own relationship with our parents and say, yeah, they said one thing, but did another. And look at me, I'm doing the same thing they did, even though they told me not to. And it's because modeling is such a powerful tool. So let's use it to our advantage.  

Amber B 32:30 

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just more reason for you guys to be here, like work on your relationship with food. And if you, if you can get your relationship with food better, that's going to get passed on to your kids, which is so powerful. Oh, go ahead. 

Alyssa Miller 32:44 

Sorry. One quick thing that I wanted to mention, because what you just said is so true because typically the way that we respond, remember earlier saying like parents uniquely, you know, positioned to help their, their kids out of picky eating. If our relationship with food isn't healed, we will see something like our kid eating what we feel like is too much sugar or asking for another piece of bread or, you know, ignoring the vegetables. And there's a heightened sense in us because we're so afraid. We're like, no, you need to eat healthy. I'm a lost cause, but you need to eat healthy. Right. And we're like, you need to, we have this like heightened response, emotional response to watching our kids and how they eat or don't eat food. And if that's not healed, then we're coming at them and we're saying, no, no, no, you have to eat this.  

And we will do anything to meet our expectation or what we think they need. And so in that like interim, I know you can't see me right now, but like one hand's above the other. But so in that interim of where we want them to be and where they're actually at, we will do anything to get them to where we think they need to be. And then comes in these pressure tactics, which is like my number one thing I teach parents, like you can't be pressuring your kids to eat food. It will backfire on you. And so ultimately if that's healed in us, well, guess what happens? Like I posted the other day about my son who very like proudly asked for a second piece of cake at a birthday party. And I was so proud of him in that moment, because I'm like, you have no shame asking for more. But if I wasn't healed with my relationship with food, I would have felt so much embarrassment or shame or, oh, no, no, no, my kid doesn't love sugar. Yes, he does. 

Yes, he does. It's cake. It's delicious, right? And so, you know, it's just these thoughts that because I have a healed relationship with food, I don't have that need or that emotional response that then puts me into action mode, like I have to fix it. And instead, I can be more in an observant, like an observing mentality of what's going on here? What do we need to work on? What can we do? How can we work together as a team versus like making food the enemy? I hope that makes sense. But I just think that's really important. It's our emotional response. If we're not healed, we're not going to be able to really build that relationship with our kids and their food.  

Amber B 34:44 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think about it a lot in terms of like how you're making the decision. 

And I think that's kind of what you're speaking to is like, you were proud of him that he spoke up and like said he wanted a second piece of cake, not because it was like the cake, but it was because it was like a lack of guilt, a lack of shame surrounding that, right? And I think how we make decisions and the process that we're going through and how we feel during those decisions matter so much more than like the exact food that it is that we're deciding about or that we're putting, you know, that we're eating in that moment.  

Alyssa Miller 35:12 

Exactly.  

Amber B 35:13 

Talk to me a little bit about different ages and how you approach food differently with different ages, like I have to assume like if you're dealing with a picky eater who's a two-year-old, it's going to be different than a picky eater who's an eight-year-old and picky eater who's like a 15-year-old. So, developmentally, what are we dealing with or what are some differences between those age groups?  

Alyssa Miller 35:34 

Yeah, I think that's a really great question. The biggest thing that we're looking at that's different because a lot of the strategies stay the same is the autonomy, the ability for their own independence, and the language that we're using. So, kids, and you know, if you dig into the science here around brain science and really how our brains work, small children really end up in black and white thinking much quicker than older adults. And you probably have this experience too. It's like I used to be a very black and white thinker, and the older I get, the more I realize the world is really nuanced. Yes, there's a lot of nuance. Well, what's the context there, right? And so, with kids, especially two, three, four-year-olds, I don't recommend saying you have to eat broccoli because it's good for you. 

Then they really do assign a moral relationship to that food where they're like, well, if I eat broccoli, then I'm good, right? Or if we say something needs to be earned, they really go, oh, I really have to earn that broccoli. I have to work really hard or that dessert or whatever. I have to work really hard for it or whatever it might be. 

So, younger kids, modeling, staying quieter is honestly the best. Being really in control of what goes on their plate. So, I always talk about this thing called the division of responsibility, roles at the table. This is my role. That's your role. One of my roles is I decide what comes up to the house, what gets put on the plate, when we're eating, where we're eating. You get to decide from what's on your plate, what you eat, how much of it you eat, if you can ask for more, whatever that looks like. Now, obviously, there's boundaries along that, but it's really important to know that your kid has autonomy and start to build that from a young age. It's full circle for me complaining about my son being so stubborn and good at picking up for himself. 

It's actually a very good thing we want to foster for our kids. But so that at a younger age, as they get a little bit older, we're talking like six, seven, eight, they can start to make more of their own decisions. Again, with parameters, I think you can set up a really good system right now that we have in our home is like, okay, you can take one thing from this bin and this drawer in the fridge is you can pick two of these for your lunch or for your after school snack, whatever that might mean. And we start to talk about things like protein and energy. And those are really not concepts that younger kids can understand. So language is super important to grow and develop with your kid. 

And then again, once they hit 16, 17, 18, those ages and above, right, like my mom still parents me, we can have more and more nuanced conversations, both about our bodies and health and food and what it does for us. You know, a really great technique is just talking about the different colors of food and how we need different colors to help our body. And, you know, we can talk about energy food. This food gives us lots of energy and this food builds our muscle and those sorts of things. We just kind of grow it with our kids. Because if we try to teach the same information to a two-year-old that we would to an 18-year-old, they're either not going to get it or they're really going to like misinterpret what you're saying. And they're going to hold on fast to like some rules that aren't necessarily for them.  

Amber B 38:19 

It's really good. You mentioned in the division of responsibilities, like part of our responsibility is like what we bring into the house. Can you talk to me about, because I know a lot of women who don't have a relationship with food have those like, I just can't even bring this into the house, right? I have no control over this food. I haven't been able to develop any control. And so they just don't buy it because they don't have any control. What do you think about that? Because I wonder if by us not bringing it into the house and not introducing it to our kids, are we now setting them up to have a restrictive mindset about that food? I think about my friend who I remember for, she was like my best friend in sixth grade. And I got her a Milky Way bar for her birthday. And she had never had a candy bar in her entire life, like ever. It was the very first candy bar she had ever had.  

Alyssa Miller 39:07 

Oh my gosh. 

Amber B 39:08 

Anyway, so I had that experience. And then it was so interesting when she went out of the house, like she swung very far the other way in terms of her food. And I just wonder, are we setting our kids up for, if we don't expose them to it, to be able to learn how to moderate and make decisions? Are we setting them up for failure in the long run? Kind of like we have ourselves.  

Alyssa Miller 39:26 

Yes. Yes. 100%. And, you know, ultimately those foods do exist and they are out there. And I cannot tell you the number of stories that I've heard of kids who are saying, oh, my mom, you know, would never eat or never bring these foods into the house. And I'd go over for a sleepover. And like the kid that they went over for a sleepover with, didn't even get to like play with them because they were just eating the whole time. Like, oh, let's have sugar cereal. Let's have bunchicles. Let's have these foods. And so there is a balance here that our kids do need to know that these foods exist, how to regulate themselves around it, and that they have autonomy over their body and really connecting how their body feels to the foods that they're eating. 

I have this kind of great story for my son. It's great for me, not so great for him, but we went on a camping trip and it was just me and him with a girlfriend of mine and her kids. And big mistake, by the way. I love my husband so much. I'm like, you're coming on all camping trips from here on out. It was a hilarious story, but it all started with a trip to Starbucks beforehand. 

And my son wanted a like strawberry lemonade type drink. And I knew it wasn't the best decision, but also we were like, well, we're going camping. It's kind of fun. I'll let him have this strawberry lemonade. It was on a menu. He hadn't really eaten his lunch. 

And so then we start driving through the mountains and the roads get topsy turvy and a little bit, you know, he got car sick and he got very, very sick. Now, not in the moment. This is very important. I wasn't like finger pointing at him, like, see, you shouldn't have drank that thing. It's too much sugar and blah, blah, blah. Right. 

Now it was a learning moment later where he goes, mom, why did I get sick? And I explained to him, well, on an empty stomach, when you have a drink, like the drink that you had, that's, you know, higher in energy, you know, um, it can make us sick, especially when we're on windy roads, we can get car sick and it's just not the best for our bodies. And so now, you know what? He'll never order that drink. He's like, if I have it, I need to make sure that I have, you know, my stomach full from lunch or whatever. He's like been able to pull this. And he was maybe four at the time, three and a half at the time. And he still remembers that even to this day, that if I have a lot of sugar on an empty stomach, it can make me feel sick. 

And I didn't have to sit there and like, yeah, he got to learn that. And I think a lot of parents try and like prevent their kids from having these experiences where they get really sick off of the food or, um, because of course we don't want to deal with that. I don't want to have to clean up puke on the side of a road. Right. But at the same time, this is a very important lesson for kids to learn what their limits are, how their body responds to different foods. And if we don't let them experience that, especially from a young age or while they're in our home, when we have influence over it, they're going to do it on their own when they go to college, like they're going to have to figure it out then. 

And so really starting when they're young is such an important thing. So with that being said, I do, um, recommend to introduce your kids to these foods. Now, ultimately you are in control. And I get a lot of pushback from people who are saying, well, I'm anti this and I don't like that ingredient. And I don't like these things. You get to decide for yourself what, what you're willing to bring into your home, but know that these foods do exist and your kids will have access to them. 

If not now, I deal with a lot of toddler parents who do have a hundred percent control over what their kids see in the world, like food wise or otherwise. Eventually they're going to go to school. Eventually they're going to go to play dates. Eventually they're going to go to friend's houses. Eventually they're going to go to college, you know, high school volleyball tournaments. That's where all my food like experiences came from. I'm like, oh my gosh, we could just eat whatever we want. Right. And so it really is just a mindset of saying, okay, these foods, I get to control when they come into my home, you know, how often they come, what types, if we do homemade brownies or store bought brownies or, you know, box brownies or whatever it might be. 

And you also decide when they're served. And I think this is a big thing with parents too, where they, especially if their relationship isn't healed with food, it's like, it's right there talking to me all the time with kids because we're not necessarily healing their relationship with food. We're like on the front end of it, we can just offer them like the cookie or the brownie or, you know, their Halloween candy or whatever it might be alongside the plate of their other food. 

And I cannot tell you how many parents are shocked that their kids will just like take a bite and then keep eating the rest of their food and then be done. But if you're not obsessed with that food, if you haven't already like broken relationship with food and have that scarcity mindset, then they're not going to obsess over it. Now they do taste good and they're high in energy and our kids are predisposed to needing high energy in this stage of life because they are growing. 

So there are still some parameters that I recommend in there. But again, 100% recommend introducing those foods regularly in a way that you feel comfortable with to get your kids kind of desensitized to these foods. So their eyes don't go wide and they can't stop eating them because it's like so counterintuitive because you're like, if I want to control my relationship with sweets, then I need to control it and not eat it and not bring it to when actually we need more exposure to those foods to become more comfortable around them and trust they're always going to be there. 

Like the other day we ran out of something and my son was so upset and I was like, yeah, we can just go to the store anytime and buy it. That exists forever in the world. And that means that we can go anytime. And you know what that means is the next time we go, if we don't get it, that's okay. Cause we can get it next time. Like I go to the store every week, you know? And so it's just a good reminder that those foods aren't going anywhere. And it's really important for our kids to learn that again, at the beginning of their life, before they have a wrecked relationship with food, it's such an easier time to teach them that.  

Amber B 44:29 

Yeah. Yeah. As I get it out of that scarcity mindset of like, I have to hoard it because I'm not going to get it later.  

Alyssa Miller 44:36 

Totally. 

Amber B 44:37 

Um, so good. Okay. So if somebody is listening and they're, they're just kind of starting out, they've learned a lot from this podcast, but maybe they're feeling like, I don't even know where to start. What would you say is like the number one place to start today with their kids that can start them on their journey?  

Alyssa Miller 44:53 

Yeah. Number one is that division of responsibility, knowing your roles, a really easy way to remember that is I provide child decides. So the parent provides the food, the child decides. So you get to decide what comes into your home, what goes onto the plate when they're eating, where they're eating. And they decide if they eat what, from what you gave me, gave them and how much.  

Number two is always provide what I call a safe food. Now a safe food is not a favorite food. All favorite foods are safe foods, but not all safe foods are favorite foods. And so provide a safe food. That's a food that they've reliably eaten in the past on their plate at all times, meals, stacks, all of the things. Um, so at least they have something to fill up their belly with while they're getting that exposure to other foods. We only serve them broccoli because we want them to eat broccoli. And we're like, they're hungry. Let's capitalize on it. Some kids really, truly will not even eat no matter how hungry they are. That's really bad advice to say, just get them hungry enough. Now there is a place for like building hunger and then showing them what fullness feels like. Um, but that's the time to give them broccoli and hope they eat it is not when they're starving. 

Right. So, um, which actually leads me into number three is a meal and snack schedule. Having some sort of schedule is a little rigid for me. I like to call it a rhythm, having a rhythm to your day of like, this is when we eat breakfast. This is when we have snack. This is when we have lunch, you know, whatever that might be. So your kid can get out of that scarcity mindset, believe it or not, if kids don't have regular access to food, they will hoard it and, or they will reject it completely because they're in fight or flight. And so they actually need regular access to food. So I like to say at least three meals a day and one snack up to three snacks a day. 

So that's six opportunities to eat during the day when they're in those young ages is really critical. So having a meal and snack rhythm, they can count on. Um, I know our schedules all change and you know, things shift, communicate that to your kid. We had soccer practice, you know, the other night. And I was like, okay, kids, we're going to have dinner a little late tonight. We're going to go to soccer practice first. We'll bring an extra snack and then we'll have dinner when we get home. Even though my four-year-old may not have the concept of time, it's important that I communicate that to her. So she feels safe and taken care of. And she knows that she's having a meal. I'm coming her way soon. So having that meal and snack schedule, the division of responsibility, exposure, exposure, exposure, cooking foods for the whole family, not individual meals. It's so easy to get in the rut of rescue meals. Or we got really like stuck in this during COVID where you like make the kids one thing, they go to bed and you have takeout or something like that. Um, eating one meal as a whole family, but including those safe foods can be really, really critical. 

So those are the first things I would say to start with, if you don't have those foundations, and this is what I teach actually in my classes, my free classes. Basically, if you don't have these foundations, all these tips and strategies that you're learning on the internet are only going to like stick for a minute and then fall off because that foundation isn't built. So if you're trying to build a house on a foundation that isn't sturdy, the house is going to crumble. Those tips and strategies aren't going to work long-term because those foundations aren't there. And those foundations being that division of responsibility, the meal and snack routine, exposing them to different foods, giving them a variety of foods is really key.  

Amber B 47:44 

That's so good. Well, awesome. If people are wanting to connect with you, find out more, find out by plug your free class, give us all the deets about what's next steps.  

Alyssa Miller 47:54 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I do have a podcast Nutrition For Littles. I'm on Instagram Nutrition for Littles and yeah, I do have a free class, um, that parents have found really helpful just in and of itself. I think it really goes through kind of what we talked about today. These, the, the fact that pick eating is, uh, uh, not the problem, it's a symptom and that there are root causes for pick eating. So I go through all those, you know, I don't gate keep it. It's all there. So you can look at them and see what they are. Um, and kind of trying to figure out what's going on with your kid. It's so important. And I think, you know, a lot of parents, it's hard. We, we get fed so many messages where we get told these first six years are so important for their health and development, but then also pick eating is just a phase. Just give them chicken nuggets and move on.  

And I, I struggle as a dietician because if we can capitalize on these first few years with nutrition, so many things get easier, including parenting. Like the number one issue, and I'm sure you talk about this a lot too, but like gut health is huge for our kids and for us. And the number one killer of gut health is eating the same foods over and over again. And so the biggest thing we need is variety of foods. And what's the number one thing eaters don't get is a variety of foods because they're not eating it. And gut health impacts so much our emotional resilience, right? So we see toddlers who are having all these meltdowns and fits, and I'm not saying those aren't normal because there are some that are developmentally normal, but really if we have really big highs and lows that aren't coming in phases and really sticking around, that could be their nutrition. 

If we have sleep issues, it could be their nutrition. All of this is formulated by gut health. How often your kids get sick, how resilient they are to different strains of bacteria, things like that is all started in the gut. So it's so important. And so that's why I teach on this. This is why I find it so pivotal and so important. And that's just like the tip of the iceberg. There's so much to go into there. But yeah, so I try to provide as much free resources as I can. Of course, I have a course as well that goes a little bit deeper if you need that additional help and support, but you don't have to suffer through picky eating. Eating with your kids and having mealtimes with them can be fun and can be a place of connection and childhood memories. You're building these memories with your family. And I hate the idea that some parents are like, oh, I hate feeding my kids. Oh my gosh, I just dread mealtimes with them because I remember being there and it doesn't have to be that way.  

Amber B 50:04 

Yeah, so good. And we'll link all that up in the show notes. We'll link it to the free class and to her Instagram and all that good stuff. So you can always check out the show notes for that. Alyssa, this has been fabulous. Thank you so much for coming on.  

Alyssa Miller 50:15 

Oh my gosh, Amber, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all that you're doing. And I just love the work that you do. So thanks for having me.  

Amber B 50:23 

What a great episode. I hope that you, especially if you have picky kids that you're working with right now, that you had some really tangible takeaways. Alyssa was so great at really giving us some things that you can actually work on and implement today to be able to improve your experience with your picky eaters. Everything that Alyssa talked about during the podcast will be linked up in the show notes. So if you go to bicepsafterbabies.com/338, that's just the number of the episode, that will be where you'll find the show notes. And like I said, we'll link everything up that she talked about during the interview on the show notes. That wrapped up this episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm Amber. Now go on and be strong because remember my friend, you can do anything.   

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